Calling all 21 month olds

[Jimjams]

HI there need some collective help. I have purposely kept away from children the same age as ds2 becuase couldn't bear to go through the whole comparison thing. However now I need some comparison.

I'm not worried about this at all, so don't hold back on the truth- I'm just wondering when I should stop being too blase about it.

Anyway DS2 has absolutely no language problems at all. He is a real chatterbox and uses specch to convey quite complex ideas with ease (eg this morning he told me very quickly that his foot was stuck inside his pyjamas). Strangers comment on how chatty he is. He points etc, eye contact is great. I am 100% certain that he doesn't have any form of communication disorder at all. His understanding is also fine. Follows instructions etc

However- given the amount he is talking his speech is totally unintelligable (I wouldn't be worried if he wasn't talking iyswim, but given that he is I would expect him to be clearer). He has a very limited set of speech sounds, and he often gets the wrong number of syllables. Basically his speech is made up of jargon, with a few clearer words. "ready steady go" would be "dudu, dudu. dooooo" Tickle you under there is "da dadu dadado" or something like that (but recognisable each time to me- although it doesn't have the correct number of syllables) Mostly he uses da- for everthinig (which is a very early speech sound). Given that ds1 appears to have a severe verbal dyspraxia, and verbal dyspraxia often runs in families I'm beginning to wonder whether ds2 has it as well. Of course I've never seen verbal dysraxia without autism so I don't know what it looks like alone, and I don't see other kids his age so I don't know what their speech is like. Ds2's other motor skills seem fine to me, as does his motor planning.

So have you come across a child like this at around this age- one who talks lots but is totally incomprehensible? Having said that he can make fairly accurate animal noises. I really don't feel particularly inclined to go near a speech therapist yet (thought I'd wait util he was 2) as they'll do bugger all before he's 3, and he does ds1's speech therpay half the time anyway. I also thought I may introduce some makaton with him as he should pick it up easily - and he's fascinated with makaton dave anyway.

at the age of 2 my dd1 could talk for england. but she wasnt clear. even now at 3.5 her speech is getting better but isnt the clearest speaking child. i still 'translate' for her at times at people just look at me and say 'what did she say?'. she has improved a lot over the last year, but she does have problems with s, th, and d at times. i cant compare her to her neices and nephew to get an idea of her speech as they had/have language problems themselves.
i'd say makaton would be a good idea used along side speech. that way he can communicate better until he speech becomes more clear.

hth

Dd2 could only say mama and dada at aged 2, and babbled away for anything else. I could work out what she wanted, because I am her mum, but noone else could, although she was communicating in her way. She was seen quite regularly by a ST from the age of about 2.5. A lot of it was to do with her teeth, or lack of front ones (she'd had them removed). At aged 6.5 now, she is pretty clear, but still has trouble with a few sounds. Have you checked how he is using his tongue against his teeth? He may be just positioning it wrong. I'd say that the fact he is trying to chatter away is a good sign though.

Sorry this will have to be brief. My ds is nearly 22 months. He and his peers show a vast range of language ability. Some of ds's speech is very clear and intelligible but at other times I have no idea what he is on about. He uses lots of nouns and short phrases but I still feel communication is a bit of a struggle (for e.g. he hasn't quite grasped the idea of a question and an answer yet - sometimes he replies, other times he just says `yes please' as if he thinks I must know what he wants). Of the other children I know the same age, some are obviously ahead of him and others are saying virtually nothing. One I know says loads of things but only his parents can understand him because the sounds he makes are very approximate.

So, my experience is that they vary a lot with respect to their language skills at this age. I think you're best to wait for a bit for the reasons you describe. Presumably he will have his 18-24 month review some time soon so your HV might be able to advise you as well. HTH.

His tongue movements seem fine Lou. We try to do Mr Tongue in the bath quite often with ds1 (oral-motor activities) and he usually jumps in. Having said that I haven't paid that much attention to him (usually desperately trying to get ds1's attnetion) and although he can stick his tongue out I am now thinking that I'm not sure I've ever seen him lick his lips. I'll have a look tonight (ds1 usually totally ignores it so it's nice to have some feedback ). He can blow though- picked that up really easily. I had a good listen to him in the pool today and his problem appears to be exactly the same as ds1's- lack of variety of speech sounds- his are even more limited than ds1's. His understanding and communication in general is definitely normal though. I would say that ds2 doesn't have a single word that is comprehensible to a stranger (except maybe da- with a big nod for yes).

REALLY don't want to go and see the SALT yet a)because the one who runs the drop in clinic is the one I've never met and who has never met ds1 yet told the school I was well known for not accepting ds1's autism. I think I would choke if I had to talk to her.
and b) IME community SALT's know absolutely bugger all about the more unusual speech disorders and would be less likely to spot verbal dyspraxia than me.

Don't want to dismiss any probs he may have though just because they don't seem like anything major compared to ds1.

Also can't bear the thought of having to go through all that patronising "you have to read to your child" crap again. No really? I think he has more speech therapy than any child of his age. He would be cued up to do all thier ready steady go's though

Thought I'd got away with not having to learn makaton- luckily I have all the signs anyway.

I reckon by the time my children are grown up I could be a speech therapist without having to retrain. I have plenty of work experience anyway

Oh and for anyone who has used makaton- do you introduce signs one at a time- or several at once, or loads at once. I thought I'd start with drink, dinner, eat and more. DS2 seems pretty clued into actions anyway and copies them easily enough.

Does he have all his teeth Jimjams? Sometimes it is harder fro childrenw ith certain teeth missing to make sounds, because they need to position the tongue behind the,. I'm sure you know all this already though.

I agree with you re: salt. I would be inclined to avoid her based on her comments about you. Can you mention ds2 to ds1's paed? It might be a way of bypassing her?

Jimjams my dd ,like misdee's, could talk for England at that age non stop infact and although i understood her perfectly i often had to translate for people! She is now 2.6 and getting clearer all the time!

Personally i'd give it a few months and wait and see as their speech comes on amazingly about that time! It must be hard for you not to compare!

Just thought of another thing! my sisters little boy never spoke and she was getting a bit worried.he'd say "bo" for juice and that was about it! He's 2.6 now and all of a sudden is practically a fluent talker which we all found amazing so i guess you never can tell

jimjams please dont worry As you know I am in the same boat as you, our kids are practically the same age too. I cant say my ds is mr chatterbox either - lots of rubbish comes out of his mouth (hes 2 next week) I was told by lots of people that 'scribble' talk is GOOD You cant teach a child to scribble talk and its the first step to actually 'talking'. I think your ds sounds like mine was 3 months ago, and now my ds is saying very clear words and he is turning into a right little copycat!!! I felt like you did 3 months ago, even before, so I know how you feel. But please, please dont worry

Sounds perfectly normal to me Jimjams. My ds2 was 2 last month and only recently started to become more understandable - he's still got room for plently of improvement though!
I have been teaching him colours etc, and making more effort with him, as I realised recently that ds1 could speak much more clearly at the age of 2 (we have it on video).

Honestly fio2 I'm not worried. Honestly. I just feel that maybe I'm in danger of completely ignoring a problem as I can't gather up the energy to worry about iyswim. I also know that becuase of ds1's problems he is at a far higher risk than Joe public of speech disorders, so I kind of feel I shouldn't ignore it for too long if he is way behind.

Intersting point about teeth lou- he was a late teether - the last canines are just coming through now.

I think if I get a chance I'll have a word with ds1's private SALT- I'll get more sense out of her than most of the NHS ones anyway. I did mention something to her about him first time I saw her- just as he went "dad da dah" and did an almighty point, so she just said something like "ha nothing wrong with his communication". I haevn;t ever asked her specifically about speech as oppsed to lanaguge though (I know his language is fine).

If I don't get a chance to have a proper chat I'll leave it until he's 2. he starts at ds1's nursery then so I can have a chat with the manager- she knows I have some concerns anyway. It'll be easy then to compare him with lots of others the same age.

I know what you mean but....if I compare him to kids at my ds's nursery they are all doing the same. I dont know about development terms, all my books have gone in the bin Nice to know Im not the only one who worries or ponders

and got to tell you my 2 learnt a new word this week...'Dave'

oh and I panicked much more than you!! I put ds in nursery when he was 18 months because I thought he would pick up speech better

whoops meant to say we use makaton aswell!!!! I am so sorry I have got an awful memory

ha ha fio- know exactly what you mean about the development books. Non of the speechy things seem to apply to either of my ds's as they do weird things anyway

Was playing with him in the bath- his tongue movements are fairly good. Oh god don;t tell me we have some weird family gene for making up your wqon language- lol

weird family...what all of us??

Jimjams-I see loads of kids every week and they are all really different. Some kids are fluent talkers at 2 years and some are still at the total scribble stage (although their parents seem to undersatnd them). I do wonder if these days, that as soon as a child gets to 2 and isn't using sentences, that they seem to be referred for speech therapy. Judging by what I've seen, they eventually get some at about 2.5, usually only about six/eight sessions and then get put back on the waiting list! ISome of the parents have been so worried they've paid out for private therapy (£25-20) per session and that's a lot of money. I'm in the sort of business that promotes speech developmen(won't advertise!) and to my embarrassment, my last child (now 5) didn't find it necessary to talk, just used to stand at the safety gate by the kitchen and scream. Because I was just staarting to work with an autistic child, his mum taught me basic signs like "drink", "biscuit", "play", sleep" and so on. It changed my life! A lot less tantrums, because he would tell me what he wanted and it calmed me and him down!. I teach baby sign language now (when appropriate) and I find it amazing that little ones of 14 months, who don't have the lannguage capability, can tell their mums things like "daddy home-happy" or Mummy cat sleeping" or Mummy, hurting" and pointing to the bit that hurts!. Hope things sort themselves out, I know you've got a lot on your plate and well done, by the way, at sorting school out. It seems like the teacher and S/N helper are getting it together and please keep posting about your son. People start to feel that they know each other through postings and as my little one is in Reception with a S/n child, I know how it feels. By the way, I am proud to be asked, but the teacher (who is wonderful) has asked me in to do some singing with the kids and use as much Makaton as I can. The little boy who I mentioned is just starting to use it and the teacher has decided to help him by asking the other children to use it with him. We're doing Hello songs, weather songs and parts of the body song and I can;t wait! Mind you, my DS4 is not happy about mummy going in-I think I must be embarrassing! LOL

Jimjams-I see loads of kids every week and they are all really different. Some kids are fluent talkers at 2 years and some are still at the total scribble stage (although their parents seem to undersatnd them). I do wonder if these days, that as soon as a child gets to 2 and isn't using sentences, that they seem to be referred for speech therapy. Judging by what I've seen, they eventually get some at about 2.5, usually only about six/eight sessions and then get put back on the waiting list! ISome of the parents have been so worried they've paid out for private therapy (£25-20) per session and that's a lot of money. I'm in the sort of business that promotes speech developmen(won't advertise!) and to my embarrassment, my last child (now 5) didn't find it necessary to talk, just used to stand at the safety gate by the kitchen and scream. Because I was just staarting to work with an autistic child, his mum taught me basic signs like "drink", "biscuit", "play", sleep" and so on. It changed my life! A lot less tantrums, because he would tell me what he wanted and it calmed me and him down!. I teach baby sign language now (when appropriate) and I find it amazing that little ones of 14 months, who don't have the lannguage capability, can tell their mums things like "daddy home-happy" or Mummy cat sleeping" or Mummy, hurting" and pointing to the bit that hurts!. Hope things sort themselves out, I know you've got a lot on your plate and well done, by the way, at sorting school out. It seems like the teacher and S/N helper are getting it together and please keep posting about your son. People start to feel that they know each other through postings and as my little one is in Reception with a S/n child, I know how it feels. By the way, I am proud to be asked, but the teacher (who is wonderful) has asked me in to do some singing with the kids and use as much Makaton as I can. The little boy who I mentioned is just starting to use it and the teacher has decided to help him by asking the other children to use it with him. We're doing Hello songs, weather songs and parts of the body song and I can;t wait! Mind you, my DS4 is not happy about mummy going in-I think I must be embarrassing! LOL

My twin ds' are at the same age but show what a variant can happen to children of the same age. Senior understands more and communicates in his way whereas junior tries his best to say words we are practising.

Like you Jimjam I have tried to avoid all that "competitive mum" situation as mostly it is bs and leaves me feeling inadequate. My best friends daughter said nothing until nearly 3 yrs and then spoke in sentences! So I know they choose their own pace.

I love this time where they are using their own language for things! They will say Daddy but I am "My Mummy" all the time. It is so precious

My Ds is 26 months and only just starting to say different words, but still has veeerry bad speech pronouncation and manages to say 'cock' for clock, coat, truck and a few others. Also only says the first half of two syllable words like 'bis' for biscuit and used to be 'bah' for banana but has promoted that to 'narna' this week. We are seeing a ST this week, which doesn't concern me, if she thinks she can help, then fair play. I know of quite a few in my area who do attend ST, strangely, they seem to be all boys? The girls I know seem to talk ten to the dozen.

On a different note. My DS couldn't eat lumpy foods until he was about 13/14 months without gagging. 'They' say that early chewing of lumps help develop the tongue/mouth needed for speech. Even though DS eats anything now, I wonder if this has anything to do with it, anyone?

Jimjams you answered the thread I started last week re verbal dyspaxia - many thanks I've now had a chance to read the sites you recommended and have sent off for the proEFA (I'll try anything)

My DS has only verbal dyspraxia and is developing normally in all other respects. If I compare DS at 21 months to your DS2 there is a big difference. My DS at 21 months was almost totally silent. He may have had a few sounds but not many. He didn't really start to chatter - albeit unintelligably - until much later than that, probably around 2.5.

I'm well aware how hard it is to decide if there is a problem or not. I was constantly reassured that it was just a matter of time - HVs, hearing consultant, family, friends etc. I think you just have to trust your instincts.

If I were you I wouldn't rush into anything. The SALT I am using with DS (who is very good I think) says that they would not work with a child younger than 2.5, and even then will not normally confirm a diagnosis of verbal dyspraxia until the child is three or over. Why not just see how things develop over the next few months, from what you say it sounds as if he will get plenty of speech therapy anyway.

Thank you again for your help last week - it really did come at a low point for me and getting busy looking at various sites really helped.

jimjams, just to add my experience.

My two sons learned to talk at different ages and in very different ways. My oldest son began to talk clearly and eagerly from about 14 months if I remember(hazy memory, it seems such a long time ago now). He loved adding to his vocabularly and would quickly and obediently copy words I wanted him to learn. My youngest son didn't talk much till he was about 24 months old and then only said the words he wanted to say. He didn't want to parrot me at all. Still refuses to say words to order, though his talking is fine. He did go throught an imaginary language, babbling stage at around 18 months to 2 years. I did get worried, since he could obviously make sounds but seemed totally uninterested in leaning to speak in understandable or clear words. Is this like your son? My son did start speaking around 24 months. By the time he was 2.5 I had no worries at all.

Hope this helps!