Calling all 21 month olds

[Jimjams]

HI there need some collective help. I have purposely kept away from children the same age as ds2 becuase couldn't bear to go through the whole comparison thing. However now I need some comparison.

I'm not worried about this at all, so don't hold back on the truth- I'm just wondering when I should stop being too blase about it.

Anyway DS2 has absolutely no language problems at all. He is a real chatterbox and uses specch to convey quite complex ideas with ease (eg this morning he told me very quickly that his foot was stuck inside his pyjamas). Strangers comment on how chatty he is. He points etc, eye contact is great. I am 100% certain that he doesn't have any form of communication disorder at all. His understanding is also fine. Follows instructions etc

However- given the amount he is talking his speech is totally unintelligable (I wouldn't be worried if he wasn't talking iyswim, but given that he is I would expect him to be clearer). He has a very limited set of speech sounds, and he often gets the wrong number of syllables. Basically his speech is made up of jargon, with a few clearer words. "ready steady go" would be "dudu, dudu. dooooo" Tickle you under there is "da dadu dadado" or something like that (but recognisable each time to me- although it doesn't have the correct number of syllables) Mostly he uses da- for everthinig (which is a very early speech sound). Given that ds1 appears to have a severe verbal dyspraxia, and verbal dyspraxia often runs in families I'm beginning to wonder whether ds2 has it as well. Of course I've never seen verbal dysraxia without autism so I don't know what it looks like alone, and I don't see other kids his age so I don't know what their speech is like. Ds2's other motor skills seem fine to me, as does his motor planning.

So have you come across a child like this at around this age- one who talks lots but is totally incomprehensible? Having said that he can make fairly accurate animal noises. I really don't feel particularly inclined to go near a speech therapist yet (thought I'd wait util he was 2) as they'll do bugger all before he's 3, and he does ds1's speech therpay half the time anyway. I also thought I may introduce some makaton with him as he should pick it up easily - and he's fascinated with makaton dave anyway.

DD2 is 2.5 and I was worried about her languge development because she wasn't "clear". She had difficulty with word endings. I mentioned it at the beginning of her 2 yr development check and the HV said I'll listen to her throughout and we'll discuss it at the end. The HV said that she wasn't worried about DD2's speech. She understood what i ment, but said that she was attemting complex sentances eg in response to a question "Would you like some more Juice?" she would respond "No thank-you I don't want anymore Juice" instead of "No" or "No thank-you". BUT it wasn't always clear what she said.
I was asked to phone her back in September if I was still worried - TBH she has improved a lot and if i try to compare her to peers at nursery - she'd not the best or the worst, just somewhere in the middle...

My youngest son is 21 months old and doesnt say ONE word!..Nothing!...Has started to make 'pretend' word sounds now..but not even dada!...He wtill lets us know what he wants..and his developement is 'normal' in every other way!

Will probably be begging him to shut up when he eventually begins!..lol

Hi JimJams - well lottie babbles - loads - but they are just noises. She says 'what's that' and a few other bits and pieces but she certainly wouldn't be able to tell me her foot was stuck in her pj's - even in her own 'da da' way, iyswim.

Re MAKATON - I love it - think it's fab - and everyone should use it a bit on their kids - I think it's that great.
I started using drink / sleep and eat at first. I actually changed drink as it was too similar (as far as an 8 month old was concerned), to food. Anyway from there built up and try and introduce a few more once the last lot have been mastered.

At 20 months she now knows and can communicate:
drink / sleep / food / home / book / baby (doll) / teddy / rabbit / dog (she uses the sign every time she sees anything with 4 legs apart from cat, for which she knows the sign she just won't use it) / car / nappy

I'm teaching her sorry / love / please / thankyou / pain.

I have all the signs not only in a booklet but on A4 sheets of paper so let me know if you want me to copy anyout and send them to you, or anyone else.

BTW - Lottie does point but does also love to get my hand to point stuff out with too.

Thomcat would you be able to photocopy some for me? - I keep losing mine

Fio - of course - which ones do you want, any in particular? Email me with you addreess and the signs you'd really like and I'll get it done.

What I do at home is to trace from the book the signs I'm teaching her and stick them to the fridge and also copy them out for childcarers, friends and family.

It's really great that Lottie points ThomCat as I assume it means that she understands how to share attention. Thanks for the makaton offer- I think I have all the signs but I'm not that clear on how to do some of them so I will ask you for clarification.

Interesting stuff dinosaur- ds1 could kind of point to things in books although he would use his whole hand (or mine). He never showed any protodeclarative pointing though (pointing out things of interest). He did his first protodeclarative point at 26 months. DS2 started pointing at 12 months (in response to "where's the...." and was protodeclarative pointing like crazy by about 14/15 months. I do find it interesting seeing the difference between the boys and the ease with which ds2 communicates despite the lack of words.

Funnily enough I was rummaging through some old reports today and came across the one from the consultant who suggested we should consider autism (we had been told months previosuly that he defintiely wasn't autistic- his diagnosis at the time was mild language delay (ha ha)). IN the report she really comments ont he striking difficulty he has with communication. She wasn't interested in his language as such, just the difficulty he showed in communicating. Now having ds2 I can see exactly what she means.

Funnily enough ds2 does have some sensry issues (noice mainly) but like your ds2- becuase he can communicate so easily they don't seem to cause any major problems.

jimjams don't know if you still want 'comparisons' re your ds2 but here's mine:
ds (2 at end Nov) was a bit late getting going - no babbling till 9 months and no words until 15+ months. Early words variations on 'Guh' -i.e. 'goh'=dog, 'gor'=ball. handful of words by 17 months ish (daddy long before mummy), but lots of conversational type 'verbal scribble'. Two words linked (e.g. daddy key) around 19 months. V rapid vocab explosion since then, 3 word sentences in the last few weeks only (e.g. 'men digging holes' ) - since he started being able to convey more in words, the verbal scribble has diminished very greatly though he still often comes out with long completely incomprehensible prhases. Hard to comment on the clarity of his speech, since I know I understand much more than strangers would, but there has definitely been a gradual but steady evolution in the range of sounds he can make, and in the pronunciation of words (so 'banana' started as 'mama' and is now 'manana'; 'rabbit' started as 'bi' and is now clearly 'rabbit' ). Lots of his words are very clear now, others are consistently mispronounced (but with a wide range of consonant sounds) and others I haven't a clue what he's on about....
Don't know if that is any help at all. I think you may be very much better than most mums at decipering his 'scribble'. I would also say that ds is developing very rapidly at the moment so that comparisons of peers are probably a bit misleading - perhaps more relevant is how your ds2 is evolving - are there signs that words are becoming clearer and a greater range of consonants being used? (not that I know anything at all about verabl dyspraxia, so I'll shut up and hope that my info is of some use!)

JimJams - ask away whenever you want and feel free to email me direct if you'd prefer.

Agree with Thomcat that Makaton is great (IMHO don't get bogged down worrying about using Signalong instead, its Pepsi vs Coke and most professionals use Makaton). I really think it was THE thing that got my son attempting to vocalise. I can't say, however, that I feel children with autism will ever become fluent talkers in Makaton as their communication problems still affect whatever mode they use. From my scanning of this thread though, I assume you might try it with DS2 Jimjams? I know you've said that your DS1 would have problems because of dyspraxia. I think its a good idea. I've got an A4 book that I photocopy and also some mini "portable" books too from the Makaton website. I don't think any of them are too expensive but its hard to know which ones to get as you won't know which signs your chlld will find most useful and/or easy to learn. The "pointing" discussions are very interesting, my son also clearly had very poor eye contact as well as no pointing. In fact, my AS sister who's 47 still has poor eye contact!!
BTW, I would advise extreme caution with any professional who claims "definitely not autism" as they don't like to be so keen to say when it "definitely IS autism" so how can they be so sure of one and not the other? I'm also not sure that there is such a thing as too young to diagnose....?

DS2 didn't say anything much until he went to nursery at 22 months old. Within 3 months of starting his vocabulary exploded and now, 10 months after starting he is speaking in sentences and conveying quite complicated ideas. He is still not terribly clear with all sounds yet(bicbic for biscuit and dropping initial S sounds for example).

This is in complete contrast with DS1 who spoke very early and very clearly. I don't believe DS2 had a problem that won't be solved with time as he is clearly communicating and progressing and does seem to be on a par with similarly aged children although maybe a little less clear.

He loved the few signs of Makaton I taught him. Still uses the one for biscuit if he's already been told "no" though as he knows he's irresistably cute when he does it.

DS1 does that soupdragon- of he asks for a cake and I say no he'll head off and get his pecs card

I've introduced a couple of makaton symbols now that ds2 finds hilarious. This whole thread has been very helpful- I do know now that his speech sounds are as delayed as I suspected so I'll keep an eye on him and try to encourage more tongue movements etc. If he's still incomprehenisble at 2 I'll start initiatng some stuff with nursery (he starts going then). Really cannot be arsed to battle with SALTS atm when his general communication is absolutely fine.

I agree with Davros- I reckon I could diagnose a strangers child at risk of autism at 18 months. I'm sure I could have told way earlier if ds2 had been autistic. I do wonder what they teach these people. In fact when we were eventually referred on by the consultant we'd seen about the verbal dyspraxia she expressed horror that we had been in the system for so long without being picked up. Came across ds1's initial diagnosis sheet yesterday - done at 26 months by a supposed autism "expert". it says that " A has mildly dleayed development of his speech and language. He also had (yes had) a delay in his social communication skills, but has recently begun to make progress in all areas".
This woman also said as a parting shot as we left the room "oh of course he might have some really mild autistic features, but its so mild if he is then it won't cause any problems".

Oh right that's ok then! The next SALT we saw months and motnhs later went mad and said people should never say that as it can leave you clinging to false hope! I think they do so much damage when they rule out autism categorically in young children- happened to my friend as well.

My husband surprised me yesterday by telling me he had arranged with his mom and his boss to take our youngest son to Chicago (my PIL live nearby) for two weeks. The reason this is relevant is that it will be the first time my SIL will meet him. She has an autistic son who was diagnosed at the age my son is now. I'm completely confident he doesn't have autism, but will be interested to hear what she says about his speech. (I'm paranoid, but in the sense that I want someone to hear him and reassure me -- it's not that I'm convinced something's wrong... dunno if that makes sense.)

Anyway, now I've two weeks to get all my ducks in a row, make the postbox, do some research into Makaton, etc etc. And clean the house and all that.

Quick update.

Had a chat with DS1's SALT on Saturday. She has seen DS2 around during DS1's sessions. She agreed that he definitely does not have a communication disorder (he was pointing for Britain and demanding various things). She also agreed that his understanding of language was age appropriate. She said that there is a huge range for the development of speech sounds, but given DS1's verbal dyspraxia (and I think he fact that ds2's speech sounds are really very behind now- especially sequences of sounds) that it is wise to keep an eye on him. I said I was thinking of giving him until January when he will be 2 and is starting nursery. I have already spoken to the nursery and they will refer me to SALT (and that way I avoid the SALT who told the school things about me despite having never met me ).

DS1's SALT thought that was a good idea- he gets a few more months to start producing sounds, but if he doesn't can be referred into the system pretty early.

Anyway nice to know that a) I'm not imagining it and b) if there is a problem she agrees that its only a speech problem.

Thats good jimjams You have got me all paranoid about my ds now though

sorry How old is he? What is he doing? I'm sure you would know if something was up.

I don't know whether I think there is something wrong or no, I am a bit like you and I think I am being blase about it! He is saying single words and some 2 word sentences like ' daddys car' but he still natters on in his own language aswell - is that normal at his age? he was 2 last week. He points, has good understanding and all that stuff its just he does do alot of scribble talk

that souns totally normal to me. The thing that I've noticed about ds2 is that his scribble talk doesn't have much variety of sounds. He chatters away but its all "da dada da da da da da daaa" iyswim It's not really the lack of words that concerns me- its the lack of sounds.

Thanks jimjams It's so hard when you have nothing to compare to. I have no idea what is and isn't normal and development books just upset me too much!

I know the feeling fio2. And it doesn't help that ds2 copies ds1 so much!