Calling all 21 month olds

[Jimjams]

HI there need some collective help. I have purposely kept away from children the same age as ds2 becuase couldn't bear to go through the whole comparison thing. However now I need some comparison.

I'm not worried about this at all, so don't hold back on the truth- I'm just wondering when I should stop being too blase about it.

Anyway DS2 has absolutely no language problems at all. He is a real chatterbox and uses specch to convey quite complex ideas with ease (eg this morning he told me very quickly that his foot was stuck inside his pyjamas). Strangers comment on how chatty he is. He points etc, eye contact is great. I am 100% certain that he doesn't have any form of communication disorder at all. His understanding is also fine. Follows instructions etc

However- given the amount he is talking his speech is totally unintelligable (I wouldn't be worried if he wasn't talking iyswim, but given that he is I would expect him to be clearer). He has a very limited set of speech sounds, and he often gets the wrong number of syllables. Basically his speech is made up of jargon, with a few clearer words. "ready steady go" would be "dudu, dudu. dooooo" Tickle you under there is "da dadu dadado" or something like that (but recognisable each time to me- although it doesn't have the correct number of syllables) Mostly he uses da- for everthinig (which is a very early speech sound). Given that ds1 appears to have a severe verbal dyspraxia, and verbal dyspraxia often runs in families I'm beginning to wonder whether ds2 has it as well. Of course I've never seen verbal dysraxia without autism so I don't know what it looks like alone, and I don't see other kids his age so I don't know what their speech is like. Ds2's other motor skills seem fine to me, as does his motor planning.

So have you come across a child like this at around this age- one who talks lots but is totally incomprehensible? Having said that he can make fairly accurate animal noises. I really don't feel particularly inclined to go near a speech therapist yet (thought I'd wait util he was 2) as they'll do bugger all before he's 3, and he does ds1's speech therpay half the time anyway. I also thought I may introduce some makaton with him as he should pick it up easily - and he's fascinated with makaton dave anyway.

Thanks everyone- very helpful to hear all the different experiences. Very interesting jmg to hear that your son was very quiet- this is probably more like ds1. DS2 really does chatter away in whole sentences continuoulsy- it's just all a variation on da

I don't want to follow my own advice and give him pro-efa yet as he's still a little young, but he's being bfed- and I will try to remember to take the oils myself.

It's true jmg- that the absolute earliest you can get a diagnosis is 2.5-3 - another reason why I haven't really bothered to go to the SALT yet. its a balancing act really of knowing when to go so he can get on the waiting list in order to be top of the list by the time he needs it if he does. Having said that I am collecting Nuffied materials for ds1 anyway, so I probably don't need to worry too much as we have the stuff anyway.

Furball- ds1 has always been a bit crap with chewing as well. He's very unwilling to eat meat, although that couyld just be copying ds1 who has refused all meat for several years now. Tigermoth-he does sound similar- he seems quite happy to tell everyone everything in complete babble- no attempt to make it understandable at all. Somehow he manages to get his point across very easily though.

Glad the links were useful btw jmg. I have heard good things about pro-efa- expect it to take about 6 weeks to work though. I didn't find that link with the boy talking- I will look again though.

Another thanks- my instinct has been to leave it for a bit- but I've been wondering if I was a bad blase mum for doing that. Pleased to find that it seems a sensible course of action.

Perhaps I should be brave and venture out with children of his age more? Just brings back such bad memories - lol.

jollymum- 20-25 pounds for SALT is incredibly cheap!!! We paid more than double that in London, and pay 35 now in the sticks (although the SALT is very good so I won't complain). I think the recommended price is 50 pounds an hour (from the the Associaltion for SALTs in independent practice website).

Probably got all you need now JJ, but I'd say your little one is v bright, and his understanding of language is way in advance of his physical ability to get it out of his mouth. My DS had lots of consanants he couldn't say and was pretty unintelligible to those who didn't know him - and 'l' still comes out as 'y' at 26 months. Also, they speak so quickly in the excitement of communication that they don't stop to worry about the technicalities of pronounciation. I think the general advice is not to worry them with it, either!

My son is two, and talks loads - even his HV commented on it the other day. He can recite most of about six nursery rhymes (such as 'Ol Madoddle ad a warm' and 'Ginkle Ginkle iddl tar' but I have to say, what sounds clear as a bell to me is often totally unintelligible to other people. And was particularly so a few months ago. He also misses off all 's's - so shoes are oos and socks are ocks, which doesn't help. I think he's a little less unitelligible than your son, but it's hard to tell because I can understand him really well, but my MIL (who he doesn't see that often) doesn't. If you want to do Makaton I think it would be fun for him, but even though I am no expert at all, if he's making himself understood to you, then IMO he's talking!

didn't mean that post to sound like showing off, Jimjams - just read it back and thought it a bit insensitive. Anyway, my MIL looks at him blankly whenever he speaks (she's lovely and has lots of experience with children). A remember we visited a month back and she volunteered to take care of ds while dh and I had a lie in but all we could hear was ds talking to her animatedly, repeating, "aht o ikar", and her saying 'what's that dear?" until dh and I yelled in unison from our bed 'The cat's got whiskers, for God's sake!!"

Just to make you all feel better, my son (7) still can be quite hard to understanda at times especially when he's excited. I have asked several times if he needs speech therapy but apparently he doesn't. I find getting him to whisper helps as he then concentrates on his words more.

Jimjams - sorry, hadn't spotted this thread before - title put me off!

Anyway, as you know ds1 has had considerable speech problems, and has had SALT fairly intensively for 2.5 yrs. DS2 (now 4) has no language or speech problems. At 2 I would say most people would have said they were both the same ... talked a lot, and were difficult/impossible to understand ... BUT they were not the same. DS2 by this sort of age was starting to say ALL the sounds, (but not all the time). I think his speech started off less clear, because of the influence of DS1 - and SALT agrees with me that this is likely. But his basic sounds were there, certainly by 2.5, and speech cleared up nicely with a bit of gentle encouragement.

So there you go, not sure if it's helpful or not. But I'm well aware that given your experience you'll be doing everything possible for him to encourage him to speak more clearly, and as you say if there is an underlying problem, he's too young to really co-operate with SALT yet anyway.

Bleeuurggghh! Just realised he's only 21 months - Forget all I said ... a few months can make a big difference. Yes, totally within normal ranges to not have all the sounds yet, and therefore be incomprehensible.

Thanks everyone. That is very useful kmg- you've hit the nail of the head- it is the lack of speech sounds that I am concerned about. not so much that he's missing some- just that he doesn't have any except da! lol. Anyway I think I will leave him until 2 and then if he still only has da I'll do something official about it. In the meantime I'll do the oral motor stuff with him (as much as you can with such a young child) he thinks its fun anyway.

Hope you don't mind too much if I barge in, but Jimjams, you've got me worried now. No, just feeling the need for a little reassurance. How do you know if he's saying all of the sounds? My son has progressed a little bit (a very little bit -- he has another word or two, although he's lost a few, including Mama and Dada) since 2 months ago when he was not speaking very much. He babbles constantly and has 10-20 words (he can mimic things appropriately, but then doesn't use the word again). He's 24 months old. I'm ashamed to say that we haven't started Babytalk yet for various logistical reasons. (My fault entirely.) Based on my limited observation of other children and posts on here, he doesn't understand as much as other kids his age do. I'm not sure what to make of that.

I'm trying to think if there's anything else. He does get upset and shake (like a whole body big prolonged shiver thing) sometimes. Today he was doing it while a bit stressed in the supermarket. And he's been in the terrible twos (massive tantrums) for about 6 months now. My friend calls him "Thunder and Sunshine" -- ie, he's either the cutest happiest little guy you've ever met or he thinks the world is ending.

Anyway, again, very sorry Jimjams for taking your thread. And thanks for all the previous help. Today has been horrible (it'll be funny in a few days, I'm sure... right?) and I have to admit I panicked when I read your post.

Sigh. I hope that anyone who knows my son would tell me if she thinks there's a problem. While I'd like reassurance, I guess I'd like the truth more.

Well ds2 is easy because he only has one sound- da- and variations (du de etc- oh and vowels oooo for example- so today he was saying "get down" and it was "de du".

Are you worried about your son's language development or just speech? I know you're in Switzerland so it could be difficult to get an assessment. Do you ever go anywhere English speaking- it might be worth having someone see him just to give yourself reassurance (and they could give you exercises to do at home).

Don't worry too much about actually doing babytalk sessions- if ds2 is around I have real problems fitting in structured activities with ds1 so I tend to snatch odd moments. The sorts of things you can do is get something like a car run, put a car at the top and say ready, steady go, encouraging your son to say it. DS2 has made a variation on the game where he says ready steady then runs across the room on go- he thinks its hilarious. If you want to build vocab, get a shoe box, cover it and make it into a post box then post pictures (get your son to) whilst saying the name of the object. Start with nouns. Any attempt he makes as the word you reply "yes teddy" or "yes car" or whatever. This is pretty much how we built up ds1's knowledge of nouns (after that you can move onto give me the car, then two stage command give me the car and the teddy). These sorts of things can be incorporated into the day.

You can also get listening games- animal noise, tranport sounds etc. DS1 is quite happy to listen to the tapes and point out the sounds- (and ds2 adores these games). I've recently invested in casette story tapes. They were meant to be for ds1 but ds2 has pinched them.

Other speech therapy staples are things like bubbles- encourage your son to blow, and also say "pop" as he pops bubbles.

Something we've been left to do this week is long sounds. So at a picture symbol (a long snake) ds1 has to shake maraccas for a long time. Then he'll be taught to shake for a short time when he sees a small snake. It's quite good as he likes doing it and its making him a bit more aware of sounds (and following instructions).

I've go loads more of these SALT activities lying around at home. Let me know if you want more. If he's 24 months he may just be a bit of a slow starter on the old language front. If he continues to lose words though I would try to see someone (preferably english speaking) for an assessment/some advice. If you end up in London I can recommend a couple of people/clinics.

Just a quick message about losing words. My youngest son did lose a some words around 2 ish, and even when I got him to reapeat a word correctly, the next day he would refuse to use it. His speech development is normal, no probs, but even now he utterly refuses to say his whole name or his age to anyone, even though we go over and over it. He is 4 and well able to remember and articulate his name. He can count out 4 of anything and say 'I have four cars' etc and rote count to 20 or more. But ask him to tell you his full name or age and he blanks you.

Children in multilingual environments are slower to start to talk -- they make up for it with better language skills later on, so it's a long-term win. So if you're in Switzerland and interacting frequently with German speakers, you'd expect your son to be behind children of the same age in all-English or all-German environments. You may also notice that he prefers words that are the same in the two languages; the German/English child I know got "shoe" and "ball" fast, and then "auto" with the German pronunciation, and even though planes are one of his very favorite things he doesn't have a consistent word for them.

Again, this is perfectly normal, and it's strictly temporary, it doesn't mean that they're permanently behind in language or that exposure to multiple languages is bad for them; it just changes the schedule. Because of this, you may actually be better off with a Swiss speech therapist than an English one, because doctors in monolingual cultures that are used to monolingual babies may be prone to apply the wrong standards and panic inappropriately.

If you're not sure whether or not he has all the sounds, he probably does. You'd notice if there was something missing, or you'd notice him doing badly at mimicking you.

Tigermoth, to reassure you, my elder son is like that too. Ask him "What is your address?" and he'll blank. He's 5 1/2 and has memorized this. But he'll respond appropriately to each question "What is your street?", "What is the number of your house?", etc etc. I don't know what makes them do that. Worries the hell out of me sometimes and he always carries a card in his pocket.

Jimjams, thank you. Your son is really much farther (further?) ahead than mine. I'm going to have to start doing the exercises and feel very bad-motherish for not doing so earlier. He's a good blower, but everything else seems a bit advanced for him.

I think you might understand (please?) that it's so hard with a son who frequently has tantrums. I don't mean crying or being annoyed, I mean the "I want to kill my mom" and kicking, hitting and screaming insanely. I read the "you should read more to your child" comment and thought, "While he's screaming and trying to claw my eyes out, eh? And that's going to help how?"

It's been a bad day. We're on holiday and have a week full of playdates to manage.

Californiagirl, thanks for the advice, but at the moment I have to ask how you know I'm in Switzerland. Very willing to accept that you're concerned and have kept up with old threads. Or maybe you changed your name?

Sorry again. Old habits die hard.

JJ- california girl knows you're in Switzerland becuase I mentioned it in a post further down (sorry).

It depends which son you're talking about really. DS2's language seems normal (seems miraculous to me- lol- but I assume its normal). For example today I said "shall we go and find him?" and he nodded and said "da" (yes) and I almost keeled over. Ds1 wouldn't understand that yet and he's almost 3 years older. That's why I wonder whether I should be concerned about the total lack of speech sounds - as his receptive language seems so much ahead of his expressive (in terms of getting words out).

DS1 is a different matter. So for example he couldn't make up his own ready steady go games (but again that's a real difference between ds1 and ds2, - ds2 seems intent on spending the whole day playing, he is as interested in playing as he is in eating, and is constantly searching for something to play with. It makes checking out things incredibly easy with him, and speech therapy exercises very very easy. For example in bed this morning I was getting him to copy my tongue movements so i coud get an idea of how much movement he has. I couldn't do that with ds1 in a million years. Despite 2 years of trying I'm still not entirely sure what tongue movements he has. That's why things like the posting box work so well for us. They start off as being quite passive- and all you have to do in the end is get the child to post the letter. We still have problems with more elaborate games. Again the listening games - you should use counters- we don;t bother - I literally get ds1 to sit down, play the tape and if he points to the corect piccy fine, if not I do.

The reason I put the "read more" comment is is becuase it is so patronising. Of course parents try to read to their children (unless they're completely clueless). DS1 used to love reasding until ds2 was born, and then every book I produced was thrown across the room. He will now read his favourite booke, but often he just wants to look at a favourite page (for example I bought him a book about school and he just wants to look at the toilet). And yes I do recognise the tantrums you describe.

Californiagirl makes a good point about being in a bilingual environment. I think it may be worth your while looking at his overall ability to communicate- as that may give a better idea of lanuage progression. Does he use lots of gestures? How does he let you know when he wants a drink or something to eat? How does he show you somthing he's interested in? What about if he wants something specific on tv or to play a particular game? If he can do all those sorts of things with ease then I don't think you need to worry particularly. DS2 despite just using "da" can get his point across very easily. This morning already he's told me he wanted raisins (tough), wanted to play with thomas, wanted to get out of bed, wanted booby, wanted to chase his brother and wanted to get in the bath. It's fascinating to me, but its a really easy stream of communication. I assume that this is normality- although others may correct me. This is what I mean when I say actual speech isn't important in the great scheme of language development.

Having sen the difference between my two boys I would say take a step back and have an overall look at the communication. If your son is losing the odd word but otherwise seems to be gaining ground with his language development then don't worry about it. If however that's just a sign amongst many that his language development has kind of halted or is going backwards then maybe keep more of an eye. DS2 again does some things that I know to be absolutely clasic indicators of autism (particularly "using the adult hand as a tool"-I mean picking a hand up and placing it on something- I expect he's copied ds1). Now if I didn't know anything about autism and read that I would be in panic stations- but I know the importance of looking at the whole picture. He also lines things up- lol- but again lots of children line things up- what the cheklists don;t make clear is that its lining up the exclusion of any productive play that is worrying.

So take a step back (hard I know)- and ask yourself how well overall your son is communicating. How easily is he understanding? HOwe easily is he getting his point across. How difficult is it for youe to get his attention and to play with him? (playing with ds1 was and is really hard work, ds2 its a breeze) BTW has he had his hearing checked? Any language problems and its worth checking he hasn't got glue ear or something- can make a big difference if everything is muffled.

I hope this post reassures you- there is a huge range in what constitutes normal language development. And STOP beating yourself up about not having started babytalk. I constantly go to bed feeling guilty because I haven't done enough therapy with ds1 on that day.

Oh other htings that really helped us is - totally reduce your language. Don't say "name come on lets get your coat on we're going out now" say "Name coat". Don't say "right we're going to play a game I want you to sit down over here" say "sit on seat". I sometimes get quite strange looks. of course this maybe why ds2 does have such a good receptive language compared to expressive- he's used to being spoken to like a dog (it kind of becomes second nature)

Jimjams, thanks. From what I've read and observed of other children, he is now behind with his language-- communicating and understanding. But not horribly so. He plays very well. Using an adult hand as a tool is a sign? argh. He does do a weird thing where he won't pick up something within reach (eg a dummy or his sippy cup) but will cry and shake and reach toward it (sometimes hovering his hand just over it) until I pick it up and put it in his hand for him. He doesn't always do that, though, so it's not like he has trouble picking stuff up.

Thanks for taking the time to post all of that. It wasn't, unfortunately, all that reassuring, but that's ok -- I think he's at the very slow end of "normal". It's so helpful to have something constructive to do.

Thanks for the Switz thing, too. I got paranoid that californiagirl was my husband's cousin! (You're not, are you?)

oohh no no don't worry- that's not "using an adult hand as a tool". It's actually picking the hand up and placing it on something rather than pointing. So for example if I have a book and say "where's the car?" he would rather pick my hand up and place it on the car- rather than point himself (although we have taught him to point- but he often needs reminding). Ooh he's just done it as I was typing this- he came over to me picked up my hand placed it on the telephone and said 'aye aye ahanone" (bye bye telephone)

The first time I saw it in someone other than ds1 was the first time I met my friend's dd. Some washing had blown down and rather than point, or say something or shout she picked up my hand and pushed it towards the washing line. It's a very particular moevement which I recognised right away. This was before ds1's dx and I was blown away. Actually her ds went through a phase of doing it as well. We've both assumed that her ds and my ds2 have just been copying their siblings, but maybe it is a normal stage of development.

Sorry it wasn't reassuring. It's good to be aware though as you can start to change things. Reducing our language made a huge difference to ds1's understanding. ANd he still loves posting. One variation our SALT has just introduced is to "feed the monster". I've cut a picture of a monster out and stuck it on a cereal box- big hole for the mouth and then you can post various items and say the word or noise. Toy cars have gone in there, animals would be good. We've used lots of letters etc. To my surprsie ds1 really likes it (I thought he'd be totally uninterested), but its a good way to practice vocab, sounds and things like letters.

JJ, if I had any cousins, I might not know if I were your husband's cousin, 'cause really, I did get the Switzerland thing from Jimjams and know nothing about you. But if you mean first cousin, I'm an only child of two only children, so I think you're safe.

My German-speaking friend here in California has a linguistics degree and knows the facts about bilingual children, and she still has a lot of trouble trying not to fret about her son's language, comparing him to the monolingual children around him, and most of the professionals she deals with are the opposite of helpful. His nursery has been very reassuring, though; when she worried to them, they observed that although he didn't say much, he will point to things appropriately (if you pick up one of his books and say "Where's the plane?", he points to it happily, regardless of which language you ask in). Basically, they said he understands just fine, he repeats words just fine, that's all the proof you need early on, he'll talk when he's going to, pay no attention to snoopy strangers even with medical degrees.

Obviously, that's no guarantee that your child is OK, but it is normal for kids in a multilingual environment to be behind in producing language, and it's normal to be worried by it, and in general it doesn't mean anything important. You'd want more signs of a problem. Understanding less than other children is more worrying than saying less, but still, it's pretty hard to tell (with a 2 year old, how do you tell "didn't understand" from "doesn't care what you want"?)

Jimjams, thanks once again. It's been a hellish few days, so everything is coloured by that. He does that hand thing, too -- but I think it's ok for him.

Y'know, we've got two hoovers. If you ever want to visit Switzerland, you are invited to visit us.

Californiagirl, thanks! You're right, he's very much a "doesn't care what you want" kind of child. I'm feeling reassured once again. Have talked to MIL also and my nephew (not autistic one, but twin) also spoke very late.

Sorry about the cousin thing-- it was one of those "oh sh#t, what have I posted before" paranoias.

JJ play and language development often go hand in hand so that can give you an idea of how far along his language is iyswim. So for example by 2 he should be starting with early pretend play- drinking out of a cup, feeding teddy, putting a baby to bed. This sort of thing again can be used as speech therapy. So set up a toy picnic and feed the teddy whatever, put the baby to bed etc. some kids aren't that interested in this sort of game, but it is good to encourage pretend play in a way they will enjoy.

the other big thing with language development of course is pointing. I'm sure I've goine on about this before. If that is weighed off then great- but if not encourage pointing (it shows they have join attention- so its a huge thing in the lanaguage world) Also worth making sure he can follow a point. So say "oh look at the x" (a word you know he knows) and make sure he is looking past the end of the finger to the object.

It's interesting to read the discussion here on pointing and using an adult's hand.

My oldest ds - an early talker - pointed like crazy before he talked and never ever used an adults hand.

My youngest ds didn't point much at all, and I worried about it at the time, though I had no idea it was a possible autism indicator - I then would have worried lots.

He also liked to place an adult hand on things. Still does, even though he's very vocal and clear now. He will grab my hand and soundlessly march me towards something of interest. But as far as I can see he is developing normally in every way, though he's not really into drawing and painting yet.

As you many remember, jimjams, his nursery had some concerns about him a year ago and he was observed there by my health visitor. Nothing more has happened on that front. I assume the nursery staff are now satisfied he is not out of the normal spectrum. Whenever I talk to the staff they tell me he has really come on - not the world's best listener, but usually good if a bit on the lively side, and does nothing they can't cope with.

I'm rambling here, but I never realised till reading this thread that my son mildly displayed two of the early pointers of autism, without it apparently leading to anything.

jj, thanks for the reassurance.

I wonder if your 5 year old and my 4 year old did something criminal in a former life, and that's why they can't quite bring themselves to reveal personal details when asked

And good news, after some concerted effort from dh and I earlier in the week, for the first time ever, my four year old told me how old he was today!

I do hope your week gets better as it goes on. It sounds like you have been in the wars a bit.

Actually tigermoth I find that fascinating. I rang my friend last night and we were chatting about this thread (mainly becuase we were examining ds2 at the weekend and his speech). I reminded her about how stunned I was when her dd used my hand to signal the washing and we were talking about the siblings using our hands. In both cases they only did it a few times- for them it seems easier to point and more obvious to point, which is why we figured they were copying their autistic siblings (they do copy a lot which can be farily hilarious- at 12 months ds2 used t sniff his books as he'd seen ds1 do it). There must be a range into normal where children do this - maybe it goes with being a bit late to mature or something -or maybe it is the age at which is is done. Both our children still do it- and her dd is 6 and ds1 is now 4- so maybe it's one of those things which is OK for a while but not if it persists iyswim. Or maybe it just goes with delayed language development.

funny you should mention the pointing. That was the only obvious sign that ds1 had autism (he was a very realxed laid back baby- no more- but he was then- very happy and smily). I now know that there were plenty of other signs- joint attnetion took a lot of work for example, copying was non-existent- but at the time nothing obvious at all. I was looking up stuff on the MMR, came across the chat test and realised with horror that he failed becuase he was 17 months and not pointing (actually more to the point he was about to fail as the chat test is done at 18 months). I then looked up pointing on the web and passed out with the stuff read- biggest single indicator of autism etc (actually I rang my firend who had been a nanny and sobbed down the phone at her- she told me not to be so ridiculous). I then had a bout 6 month of me "but don't you see he's not pointing and that's a really big thing" and everyone else saying "don't be ridiculous how can he possibly be autistic".

Now I'm very pleased I stumbled acorss the importance of pointing because it meant by the time he was diagnosed a year and a half later i had done all the reading and I had accepted he was autistic and I had joined the support groups (so the diagnosis came more as a rite of passage really - rather than a terrible life changing event- I was joining the club iyswim). The worst bit was the first 6 months following the pointing discovery when people would look at me like I was mad, I would try and talk myself out of what was geting more obvious "oh look he has a sense of humour so he can't be autistic" but all the time the pointing articles were gnawing away in my head

Glad things are going well with your son at nursery now.