How old does a child have to be to be a proper bully?

[tigermoth]

Many toddlers and preschoolers may shove, hit and kick others. Some do it from time to time, others more than that. Threads here often refer to a child under 5, even as young as 2 years, as being a bully.

Someone (jimjams?) on another thread questioned whether this is an appropriate term to use for a young child's behaviour. I question it as well.

A very young child IMO can be naughty, aggressive, not good at controlling their emotions, etc but is not a bully, as I understand it anyway. To me a bully is someone who launches a systematic, pre meditated, cold blooded attack on a victim and I don't believe under 5s are capable of this type of thinking. But my sons have never been bullied so I could be very wrong here.

I just wondered how old you think a child has to be before you can say truthfully that, he/she is a bully?

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Yes I agree tigermoth (and it was me). I get quite annoyed when I hear of 2 and 3 year olds being described as bullies- I don't think they are. I guess my definition of bullying comes with realisation, so if a child sents out to deliberately hurt another child in some way that is bullying- the age will vary according to the child. They have to have the ability to understand that what they are doing is unpleasant though.

For exmaple if DS1 pushes or hits other children at 8 I doubt very much that I would view it as bullying in his case as (thinking forward) I assume he won't have any understanding of what he's doing. If DS2 does that then I would be more inclined to think of it as bullying.

In either case (and in the case of younger children) the behaviour can still be dealt with, it might just need different strategies, and I personally think it is important to remember that if the child doesn't understand what they are doing then they are not a bully.

BTW I write as the mother of a very passive child who has always been on the receiving end of pushing and shoving and general roughness. Yesterday was the first time I have ever seen ds1 (now 4) push another child (with the exception of ds2 I've never seen him do anything nasty to another child at all- and most of the time its ds2 (19 months) taking ds1's toys). Although I've seen him pushed around a lot I've never sen him bullied .

Of course its not all pushing etc a lot of the worst bullying is verbal.

I think younger children are generally more likely to "bully" physically, and older ones verbally, but at DS2's sports day this year there were 3 or 4 pre-schoolers running around and 2/3 of them were definitely picking on the 4th and verbally excluding him - by name - from whatever they were doing. He seemed to be oblivious, fortunately - maybe he was a bit younger, in a little world of his own anyway - but the older ones (nearing 4) knew exactly what they were trying to do.

So, tigermoth, I'm afraid I do think they are capable of bullying earlier than 5. (I wouldn't really consider pre-school shoving etc to be bullying though.)

I think they can bully earlier than 5 too - but only just. In my son's reception class there was a little circle of blonde girls who would systematically pick on the girls who weren't blonde.."you're not pretty, your hair's ugly and dark, you can't be friends with us, and you're not invited to so n' so's party." The ringleader was a girl not yet 5.

I think earlier than that (2 and 3) when they push each other and take toys away etc. isn't genuine bullying - it's an inability to understand social skills and the concept of sharing, and an instinct to simply lash out when they feel like it. Some children don't seem to have that aggressive tendency but a lot do.

That's interesting marthemoo and janh. I'm racking my brains here but don't think I've seen a whole group of under 5s systematically exclude, name call and attack a specific child regulalry or for any length of time. I've only seen this sort of thing happening for a few minutes as part of a pretend game ie playing monsters.

But then, I have no experience of teaching or going to a playclub regularly and watching the same group of children develop friendships and alliances. Ny experience is based on what I see when I go to the park, or when my sons invite neighbouring chidren to play, or when we see their other friends. In each case these are children who don't spend lots of regular time with my sons. Perhaps that makes a difference.

I've never encountered an under 5 child - mine or any one else's - who will always pick on the same victim, and never play happily with them. But I am very prepared to believe this happens when I see some of the threads here on mumsnet.

When my oldest son was 3/4 he did hit out sometimes and definitely got overexcited, but the children he hit were usually his bestest friends too, and 90% of the time he was fine in their company and the children wanted to play with him. So although his behaviour was bad when he hit, I would not have said he was a bully and the friends was his victims.

twiglett, I am stunned to hear that children don't get the concept of sharing till the of 8 or 9. Is that because before this age they think 'I better share because the teacher told me to and I will get into trouble if I don't? And it takes more maturity for them to put themselves in another child's shoes and think 'I must let have a go because he is my friend and I don't want him to be upset'?

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I agree with Tigermoth. You simply can't be a bully if you have very little concept that the other feels X or Y as a consequence of your actions. Young toddlers are very me centred - they do what they have to do to get the result they want - they aren't following a deliberate and sustained course of action to make another person unhappy (my definition of bullying) but simply are entirely focussed on their own aims and desires. This is normal IMO and the reason for it is that the part of your brain that allows you to do this is only partly physically developed. Adult psychopaths have been found to have the same frontal lobe development as young toddlers! So I would agree with about five. That's not to say that children shouldn't be taught how to behave socially before that, but I think it is more akin to dog training than a moral education.

I am also of the opinion that very young children who show such sustained aggression who don't often have something going wrong at home - from lack of attention to lots of aggression being shown to them. Obviously not always - some children are just more immature, some have other problems such as ASD, but pretty often, I'd guess.

I agree with aloha. I do think young children can behave horribly- but that's why parents need to watch them and step in and modify their behaviour when necessary. I just don't believe a child should be called a "bully" if they don't have the understanding.

I do think verbal bullying is more common among girls- if I remember my schooldays it was and that exclusion thing is very girly.

Batters I think that whole "you're a baby" thing is very common among 4 year olds. A LOT of 4 year olds (and older and younger) have called ds1 a baby because he still wears nappies and there are so many things he can;t do. One friend was a bit embarrassed as she's used the "you're not a baby" line for potty training, next thing she knew her son was convinced ds1 was a baby- and was genuinely confused (and slightly obsessed) about it. I think thumb sucking could be the same- maybe her mu tried to stop her by telling her that babies suck their thumbs.

Lots of children get very confused because ds1 can't speak and some of things they say could be seen as quite hurtful (although he doesn;t understand). More often than not I just hear them point him out to their parents with a "that's A he can't talk"- very matter of fact whilst the parents shuffle theuir feet and look embarrassed. to date I haven't seen ds1 bullied (the nursery are very good at guiding the children to accept Sn though). I'm not worried about school as one little girl in his class really protects him- she won't let anyone be nasty to him. Really he's an example of how with proper guidance from adults young children don't bully.

Of course as they grow up the peer group becomes more important- helped by school of course- and then I think bullying can start.

I agree with Aloha and Jimjams. Of course under 5s can be awful to eachother but it all depends on how you define bullying. My DS (4 in November) recently started saying things like "You aren't my friend" and "You can't come to my party" to a friend's child but I am convinced that he has learned this since he started Kindergarten and he hears other (older) children say it. I think that DS has absolutely no idea that what he is saying is hurting anyone's feelings. I talked to him about it and told him that that isn't nice and was making so and so sad ... he understood that reasoning and the other day I heard him say to someone else not to make so and so sad.
As a teacher I have definitely seen 7 and 8 year olds bully ... pre-meditated cruel bullying where they have gone out of their way to pick on another child and make that child's life a misery.
I believe that from the earliest possible age (from when a child can understand you) it is our responsibility to teach them about what is right (nice/kind etc) and what is wrong (mean/unkind) ... and the parent or carer who laughs or does nothing or says those awful sentence "Boy willl be boys" (grrrrrr) when their toddler is unkind/aggressive is failing in that duty ... they are teaching the toddler that it is ok to hit/pull hair/snatch/blah blah and so as the child gets older they might well become a bully ...

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I'd love to agree that there's a simple and directlink between how we bring up a toddler and how that can or can't lead to bullying.

I definitely think parental influence is a big factor. If you persistantly say 'boys will be boys' for instance and ignore nastiness and laugh off other children's upset, then I suppose it stands to reason that you child may be more likely to grow up to bully.But I'm hesitant even as I type this because my personal expereince is different.

But I really don't know how much early parental influence makes or not makes an 8 year old into a bully. My 9 year old isn't a bully but I don't know exactly why he isn't, IYSWIM.

All I can say is that having had two sons, both parented in approx the same way by the same two people, the older one used to hit out sometimes at 3/4 and the younger one (now aged 4), so far doensn't. And also, the older one, who hit at age 4, had a better vocalublary and could express himself more easily than my youngest son who doesn't hit. So what to make of that?

please excuse spellings - I just wanted to add, I'm only throwing in the age 5 thing as a discussion point. I think it's possible for real bullying to begin a little earlier than this, depending on the child, but is more common after 5 years or so.