Rough boy at playgroup

[Holly02]

I'm just wondering what other mothers think about this. There's a woman at my playgroup who has a nearly 4 yr old boy, and my ds is 3.2. Her son is very rough and every week he can usually be relied upon to hit/kick/throw sand/take other kids' toys away from them. For some reason, her son seems to gravitate towards my ds - sometimes he's ok, but most of the time he is extremely rough and today I caught him a few times kicking my ds, throwing sand over him and taking all of his toys away from him - just for the sake of it.

His mother seems to think that "they're just being boys" and should be left to sort it out themselves. That's fine if your son is the aggressor, but my ds often comes up to me in tears over something this other boy has done to him. I get the feeling she thinks I am being too protective, but I am tired of the things this kid does. Even some of the other mums were telling him to leave my ds alone this morning, but I can tell that this boy's mother gets irritated by other people intervening. I'm afraid I don't see it that way - if I ever see my ds purposely do something to another child, he gets reprimanded for it. What do others think?

I'd talk to the playgroup leader about it - it's not on and, as the boy's mother doesn't seem to be getting the message, someone will need to spell it out to her.

I would always admonish my child if he was being aggressive unless it was definitely horseplay being equally enjoyed by both or all parties.

It sounds to me that this boy needs telling off, i know id pick mine up and take him to one side if he was behaving like that. Asking someone there to speak to the mother is a good idea, because you dont want to start a war with another parent. Especially if she gets irritated by intervention! Talk to the playgroup teacher she will have had to do this a million times

I'd feel no qualms about telling this other boy off since the mother doesn't seem to bother. Just a firm (and loud!) "That's not very nice. If you carry on throwing sand/kicking/whatever no one will want to be your friend." or "How would you like it if someone did XYZ to you?"

There's a clear difference between boys being boys (horseplay like Jude mentions) and throwing sand/kicking etc

I took dd2 (11 mo) to a mother and toddler group this morning and the token 'rough boy' (about 3) sat next to her and spat in her face. Nice.

His mum just said 'oh dear x thats not nice' and carried on chatting to her friend.

I had no qualms about taking him aside and telling him that that was a really horrible thing to do and if he ever did it again he would be in big trouble with me.

I'd intervene if my son was the perpetrator so I think she should be getting involved too and sending him a loud and clear message to her son that this isn't on. I agree, can you do it through the playgroup leader so you don't have to directly confront her? Very annoying, I agree.

That 'Boys will be Boys' thing really irritates me. Yes, they might, if never given any help to make sure that boistrous doesn't include hurtful. Some parents! It sounds as if there is agreement amongst other mothers, so why not just go for it? I would tell HIM directly if he assaults your child again, tell the mother that you are sure he only means to be boistrous, but it would help the other children if he could be kept in check a bit, and inform the leader.

I agree with Blu - I mean, just because they're boys, doesn't meant it's ok to be viol;ent & worst, unchallenged. I absolutely would not tolerate my sons behaving like this, nor would I put up with it regularly happening to them You're not being over-protective, why would anyone sit back and watch someone they love being attcked? It makes me mad that kids are expected to put up with no end of s**t, purely because they're kids.
I mean, if someone came up to her & kicked her/throwing sand over her etc she'd say sommething pretty sharpish I bet.

I agree, tell the playgroup leader if there is one, tell him off too & if necessary & if you feel brave enough, say something to her, sounds like you'll have the support of the other parents. And to be honest, if push came to shove & there was no improvement, I personally would stop going. But I know lots of people wouldn't agree with that, but it would do nothing for my stress/worry & bad mood to watch my son being hurt by the same child every week.

Best of luck.

tricky one of the mother gets annoyed. I agree about having a word with the leader. Probably better coming from someone "neutral" iykwim. maybe some "rules" could be introduced for all the children (ds1's nursery has them up in the corridor- just obvious ones like no hitting etc).

I saw ds1 push a little girl today when I dropped him off at nursery. I shouted "no" at him at the same time as his nursery keyworker did. It's so frustrating when mother's don't say anything.

I did know another little boy very like the one you describe. He always used to go for my friend's son. He suddenly grew out of it shortly after turning 4 so it may get better anyway (his mother never said anything either).

Of course he should be told off for intimidating behaviour towards other children. I think you should talk to hus mum about it.

I hate telling other people's kids off, but I have done it. I guess if it was me I would try to stay very close to my child and supervise to prevent the bully from being a bully. I don't know if that's possible for you, Holly02?

Its not just a boy thing, my friends girl keeps slapping my little man in the face, but she tells her off so im happy with that.

If telling the boy off doesn't work then I'd pick up ds and say in a loud'ish voice "come on sweet heart we don't play with rude or agressive children" and move to another area. That way you're expressing your opinion and not telling the boy off in a direct way, just telling his mother off for not controlling him.

Also tell playgroup leader what's going on.

Ds is a thug he will pick on other children - it's not my fault but I do reprimand him at every opportunity (especially infront of other children and parents) they need to know that the behaviour exhibited is not only unacceptable but also that something will be done about it every time - cosistency.

Ds tends to pick on bigger children though and usually they can't belive that the little toe rag is going to take their toy or push them out of the way (he doesn't hit or kick, pinch or bite) but that behaviour is still unacceptable.

I help to run a Mums & Tots Group. I have no qualms in telling the more boistrous children to stop if they are being aggressive to other children. I tend to say "We do not hit/bite/throw toys at other children here'. as yet, no one has approached me to tell me not too?

I have absolutely no qualms whatsoever telling off other peoples children if their parents cannot be bothered to do so. However, I am not known for my diplomacy (surprise, surprise) so perhaps a word with the leader as the others suggest. If this does not work then just tell the little man off, his behaviour is unnacceptable.

I agree with everything that has been said so far, but if you want to avoid confrontation you could try another tack first. I faced a similar situation the playgroup I go to with ds - a really agressive wee boy was consistantly picking on the younger kids - including ds - and it was actually driving some of the nicer children away. Anyway, I am pathetic when it comes to confrontation (even vaguely asserting myself brings me out in a rash ) and the bully's mother is even scarier than he is, so I decided to tackle the situation by befriending the boy. When I saw him going near ds I would go and play with them - giving the boy lots of positive attention while also making sure that ds didn't get walloped. After a couple of weeks of my being relentlessly nice to the terror I discovered that he was actually quite sweet - and now he always comes up and says hello and evev shares his toys with ds. The only negative result is that I've spent so much time playing with him that most weeks he tries to come home with me ....

This tactic might be worth a try - I know some kids are just plain difficult but in this case it turned out that the aggressor was really attention deprived and a bit of positive praise (instead of the constant criticism he was used to) seemed to do the trick. If that doesn't work - get him expelled from playgroup!

I'll tell other little children off, but first off, I usually avoid singling out one child, even if I think that child is mostly to blame.

For instance, if one child out of several is throwing sand in my child's direction, I'd say to all of them, 'play nicely - don't throw sand, it might get in someone's eye and hurt them'. It seems easier to make it general, especially if you are a stranger. Hopefully the shock effect of a stranger saying something is enough to stop the rough play. And if the child's mother is in earshot, it won't sound like I am picking on her child alone.

If that doesn't work, I'd then say something direct to the culprit, the mother or tell the person in charge depending on circumstances.

I don't know if a general reprimand would work in your situation Holly02 but it might be worth a try. If you think even this will get this mother's back up, then you need to speak to the person in charge.

Have 2 views for you.A neighbour and I are both outspoken and in situations like this have tried to talk to the childs parent.This often doesn't work.We have an agreement between us that if we see each others kids misbehave we act if were the only one's there.We also now with one girl in particular tell her off directly as when my son went to her mother when she kept stealing his scooter she laughed it off and told him that if her daughter was naughty then he shouldn't play with her.This would have been difficult as all the children in our area play together.This wouldn't be so bad but my son is 9 she's 6/7.My son won't fight.As for it beeing in school have the teachers seen these things happen and whats there reaction?If there is none then I'd have no quarms about stepping in.If that doesn't work then I would speak to the mother and if she doesn't see a problem then try to get across to her that if he thinks that it's now ok to be a bully then what kind of person will he become when older.Try to put it across that your concerned for her childs saftey as one day he's going to meet a child who will thump him back.

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I'd be wary about isolating the mother. The child may have a problem. I have a friend who has a ds who bites and she has tried everything. She has seen behaviour support who gave some strategies, but these really just reinforced what she has already tried.

Some children behave badly because of poor parenting, but some behave badly for other reasons. These parents become isolated enough as it is. There's been enough c* in the papers recently about AS/ADHD being caused by poor parenting and not letting children climb trees without isolating parents further.

I'm not syaing the child Holly is talking about has a problem, but I have read of many many mothers of children with AS being isolated by other parents at school, and so of top of trying to deal with a "challenging" child they also have to deal with other people's ignorance.

robinw if you are advocating isolating another mother as a group you are in effect advocating gang-bullying. 2 wrongs, etc

I've got a very boisterous nearly 3 yr old & I know that he can be quite annoying (though not often violent) at playgroup. I do keep a very close eye on him & I must admit because I do keep a close eye I get very annoyed when other women tell my child off when I'm there - fair 'nuff if I'm not. I'm sure some women have labelled my child a troublemaker and love the opportunity to have a go (paranoid mother or wot - probably but I'm sure there is an element of truth). I know he can be a little b***x

I'm very cautious about telling other peoples kids off if there parents are there - unless it does get very violent. I think taking your child away & approaching the playgroup leader to talk to the mother is a much better track.

lazyeye - I mean this in the nicest possible way but if you're there and you know your child can be a problem to others then why aren't you supervising him constantly? That way no other parents would have to tell him off and you wouldn't have to be offended.

I know that my ds is a thug he picks on older children but he gets away with nothing, if another child had it first then it gets given straight back to them if he's rough then he gets sat on my lap and told immediatly that "we don't push" if he's being a real problem to the other children I take him home.

This means that other parents don't get the opportunity to tell him off, this also shows them that I'm keeping him under control, and him that that behaviour isn't acceptable.

I often think that he's doing these things to get my attention, he needs lots of attention but he does get especially troublsome when he thinks I'm not looking.

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Jenie- but how would you feel if the other mothers isolated you becuase your ds was being a pain? I think lazyeye is saying she does deala with it, it still happens sometimes and she doesn't want to be isolated becuase of that.

Now recently ds1 has started to push (by which I mean I've seen him push one child and he's been pushing ds2 around). I don't trust him round smaller children as of last week, but at playgroup I can't guarantee that he won't push other kids becuase I can't hover round him the whole time- ds2 is 20 months and needs a lot of supervision as well (especially as he insists on climbing the big slide all the time). The other thing is that if he does push another child although I have ways I can try and deal with it, I can't deal with it in the normal way. Although he's 4 I certainly can't get him to say sorry to the other child (a) because he can't speak and (b) because he has no concept of hurting children or being sorry. Likewise he wouldn't understand the concept of being taken home for naughty behaviour. He would probably just scream the rest of the day becuase I'd upset the routine and we hadn't eaten luch there, or if it was after luch he wouldn't even notice we were leaving early. I can remove him from the room, but that's it, and I can't guarantee that he won't push again.

Now in my favour (touch wood) he is very passive. He lets kids half his size takes toys off him and I've only ever seen him push a strange child once, but I do know it could happen and it could become a problem and I'm not entirely sure how I would deal with it. I'd be pretty upset if I was isolated by other mothers on top of all that (isolated enough by other mums thanks very much!)

What I was saying was that if you don't like other parents telling your child off then you must watch your child constantly, consider if your childs behaviour is acceptable to others, be responsible for their actions and the consequences of their actions.

Jim-jams your case is somewhat different to the one that I was using as you have to maintain this level of controll over 2 children where as I only have ds at playgroups as dd goes to school.

I also think the isolating of parents would have been for parents who continually allowed their children to be a problem to others without trying to stop / intervien in an appropriate way.

I dont think that isolating anyone from a playgroup is what playgroups are about. If the child is behaving badly there can you imagen what the childs mother has to contend with at home? She should be first in line for a space that will allow her child to run around but she must controll him/her or expect others to do so and not take offence.