Rough boy at playgroup

[Holly02]

I'm just wondering what other mothers think about this. There's a woman at my playgroup who has a nearly 4 yr old boy, and my ds is 3.2. Her son is very rough and every week he can usually be relied upon to hit/kick/throw sand/take other kids' toys away from them. For some reason, her son seems to gravitate towards my ds - sometimes he's ok, but most of the time he is extremely rough and today I caught him a few times kicking my ds, throwing sand over him and taking all of his toys away from him - just for the sake of it.

His mother seems to think that "they're just being boys" and should be left to sort it out themselves. That's fine if your son is the aggressor, but my ds often comes up to me in tears over something this other boy has done to him. I get the feeling she thinks I am being too protective, but I am tired of the things this kid does. Even some of the other mums were telling him to leave my ds alone this morning, but I can tell that this boy's mother gets irritated by other people intervening. I'm afraid I don't see it that way - if I ever see my ds purposely do something to another child, he gets reprimanded for it. What do others think?

To go back to a bit earlier down the thread - I have a pre schooler who you could call a 'rough boy' he's big for his age and noisy and he is loving and kind too. But I have left so many groups in shame and tears becuase even when 'watched constantly' (alternatively i suppose I could chain him up) - he has managed to bite , push or shove another child. Like most 2 year olds he still gets frustrated when he cant articulate. Eventually after I had been on the receiving end of enough filthy looks and apologised to offended parents enough. I stopped going out and started to believe he was anything other than a monster. I now believe my son is delicious and that I was doing EVERYTHING reasonable to control him but I also do think there is a nature / nurture question in what kind of child you can end up with in terms of physique, ability, articulacy.I have three I believe I have treated them all the same and they are so radically different you wuld be forgiven for thinking the postman had been knocking more than twice.
I know some parents dont monitor or discipline their children enough for other parents in a group situation - I am not one of those I loudly and publicy punished him, often I felt beyond what was justified but mainly to placate the parent.
It is also worth bearing in mind that some parents have totally different tolerance levels for their childrens behaviour and this extends to table manners , clearing up after their child has trashed your house, remembering to say thank you for presents or tea. When and where do you actually start to be the one member of a group who decides what is and isnt acceptable and to admonish other parents for their children's behaviour.

Tigermoth you just said much more clearly what I wanted to say. thank you

Bubbly - you point about punishing your child more than necessary to placate the parents struck a chord. I used to find myself doing this a lot. I've even found myself telling my non-verbal 4 year old to "say sorry"- like he could if he wanted to (let alone understand what it means). Now I try as much as possible to react acording to what is appropriate for each child rather than to meet Joe public's expectations. For ds2 it's easy as its all as expected, for ds1 I have recently found myself saying you well done and good waiting to ds1 whilst he's been headbutting the checkout (you should have seent he looks- they were epratically hissing "what that child needs is a
.....".

I think tigermoth and bubbly make really good points.

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I agree with Tigermoth -- I have two very different boys. My brute is not yet two, but not in a bullying way. That's the way he plays. He's happy when kids play with him like that. But it's not at all acceptable. And not at all accepted (by me) as playing when he does it.

That's where I think the whole thing about physical kids/lax parents differs. Anyone could have physical kids. It's when you mind other people pulling their kids away from your boy who's beating the shit out of them that there's a problem. And, to me, when the unacceptable parenting begins. Ie, it's when you say dismissively, "Boys will be boys". (just using "you" here for the clarity, as opposed to "them".. I've got to learn to write one day)

I try and warn people.. after that (and watching the boy like a hawk, apologizing, whatever's appropiate) it's not my problem what they think. And I don't judge mothers on how they do or don't discipline children... I have no idea what works for them. I do judge them when they have a problem with me for getting my son out of harm's way.

I agree with Tigermoth -- I have two very different boys. My brute is not yet two, but not in a bullying way. That's the way he plays. He's happy when kids play with him like that. But it's not at all acceptable. And not at all accepted (by me) as playing when he does it.

That's where I think the whole thing about physical kids/lax parents differs. Anyone could have physical kids. It's when you mind other people pulling their kids away from your boy who's beating the shit out of them that there's a problem. And, to me, when the unacceptable parenting begins. Ie, it's when you say dismissively, "Boys will be boys". (just using "you" here for the clarity, as opposed to "them".. I've got to learn to write one day)

I try and warn people.. after that (and watching the boy like a hawk, apologizing, whatever's appropiate) it's not my problem what they think. And I don't judge mothers on how they do or don't discipline children... I have no idea what works for them. I do judge them when they have a problem with me for getting my son out of harm's way.

But not two different posts...

Have been wanting to reply back to this thread but for the last few days but haven't had much time... thanks for the responses.

Firstly I just want to say that I do like this boy's mother, but it is so frustrating to watch this kid get away with the things he does. For a long time now he has singled out my ds, because physically, they are both similar sizes even though my ds is younger than him. The typical scenario is that ds will be sitting there playing with a toy & minding his own business, when this boy will come up and yank the toy away from him, and then torment ds by not giving it back to him. If ds tries to get the toy back, the boy's response is usually to push ds away, or in some cases, hit or kick him. It happens every week - this kid ALWAYS wants the toy that ds happens to be playing with. When things get out of hand it's usually ME who has to go and intervene, but the boy's mother doesn't usually do anything about it. I have put up with quite a lot from this kid (or should I say, DS has put up with a lot), and I almost stopped going to playgroup because of it.

Our playgroup is held outside and the area is fenced, for obvious reasons - so that the little ones can't get out. This has also become a problem because once again, this boy goes and opens the gate, takes off outside and leaves it wide open for the other kids to get out... & his mother doesn't even try to stop him. A number of times I've had to go looking for ds and some of the smaller children, because this boy has let them all out. And (sorry, having a bit of a vent now ), a couple of weeks ago this kid purposely threw sand in a little girl's face, which got into her eyes. The boy's mother just said in a sweet voice, "Don't do that darling", and she let him carry on playing. If that was me I would have removed my son immediately. I don't think it takes a psychic (as someone suggested earlier) to know that other mothers really don't want their kids treated this way without any intervention from the offending child's mother. I really think the best thing she could do (if discipline isn't working) is to just take him home. But much of the time she doesn't seem to think it's a big deal.

As I said, I do like her but her son has become 'notorious' and I know that another woman stopped bringing her children to playgroup because of this child. I understand how difficult it can be for the parent of a child like this, but it just makes you wonder exactly what the problem is and whether the parents are doing their best to address it. As far as I know, he doesn't have any other conditions that might be causing his behaviour. I sympathise with her but at the same time it's hard to feel anything positive toward her child.

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holly- in this sort of case I think the best thing is to draw up a list of rules- given to everyone when everyone is there- by the leader. Obvious ones like no hitting, no leaving the gate open (actually I had this problem at playgroup- ds1 has no raod sense and children would leave the gate open, so I tied it shut- then the children couldn't get out and if adults went out it made them remember to shut the gate!) no throwing sand, then it is easy for the leader to intervene when the rules are flouted.

The taking toys thing is annoying, ds1 always had toys taken off him, but I found there was very little I could do except remove him. That phase does pass- the only person who really takes toys off him now is ds2!

Tigermoth- ime - if you are doing the right things then SEN workers, beahavioural specialists, psychs etc don't have any ideas. I've asked advice a couple of times on dealing with ds1's behaviour (only affecting family life- no-one else) and they listened observed and said "you're doing all the right things just carry on, you're doing very well". So no magic answers. Also a friend of mine saw the behavioural team about her sons continual biting of other children. They couldn't offer her much advice except to reduce her language and use positive langauge (which she was already doing as I'd told her to try it). The bets thing they did really was to tell her that through the eyes of a 3 year old biting is no worse than pushing or hitting and that her ds didn't know he was doing anything worse than hitting. So at least it made her feel a bit better. I really feel for her. She thinks her son may have AS, he may do or he may just be a bit immature, difficult to tell at 3 (and he's not going to get diagnosed at 3 anyway), but I see her working really really hard. She already does what every mother of an autistic child does which is continually think ahead about possible flash points (and she has a young baby to look after). She is trying really really hard, her son still bites and she feels there are loads of places that she cannot go with him. Sometimes there really isn't that much you can do that will make a rapid difference.

holly, I agree with jimjams about getting the playleader and parents to draw up a set of rules, or revise the ones already in place and call a parents meeting to relay the information to everyone. If this mother does not attend, she can still be given the minutes of the meeting or the playleader could have a chat to her about the meeting and its content.

It does sound like this mother is not intervening enough and I can see why you and other mothers are upset. You also say you like her as a person, so I take it she's far from hostile. Do you think her vagueness could be at all connected to depression, tiredness or could there be something on her mind? I must admit I can get so wrapped up in my own world sometimes, especially when I am worrying about something, that I am not on the ball at all. Could the playleader take her to one side and sort of say, 'are you ok - you seem a bit distracted?'

Robin, no, your messages haven't offended me - don't worry. My computer time is a bit limited atthis week so I am not posting so much. I know we tend to agree to disagree sometimes certainly not all the time,though - and I do think Holly has a problem here.

jimjams, thanks for that last paragraph of your message.

This isn't necessarily relevant to Holly's situation but just an interesting thing I came across today about poor behaviour.

Madelaine Portwood is probably the UK expert on dyspraxia. Back in the late eighties she did some research with young offenders, and on children with emotional and behavioural difficulties (EBD children - ie the one's whose behaviour is so bad they often cannot be incorporated into mainstream schools). Anyway she found out that 77% of the pupils with EBD that she screened had signs of neurological immaturity. What generally happened was that although their intelligence was average they had dyspraxia - this tends to include subtle problems with things like language development and social skills as well as the more obvious things like writing. SO these children had been classed as failures from a very early age, and were unable to cope in the early education system- frustration led to appalling behaviour.

The young offender institute she screened revealed that more than 50% of the inmates had varying degrees of dyspraxia (the rate in the general population is between about 5 and 10%).

Likewise when we visited BIBIC the therapist was talking about the number of children she now realises have sensory issues (I'm sure sensory problems are behind some of my friend's ds's biting problems). (sensory problems lie behind dyspraxia as well)

Although obviously bad parenting doesn't help, surely these figures show the relationship isn't always clearcut. And perhaps some of your childs behaviour comes down to how much fish they eat......

Just want to have a rant really.

Have decided not to go to this playgroup anymore (even though I've been going for the last two years) as the last straw was ds having a handful of sand thrown in his eyes yesterday by this other child. DS was sobbing and I rushed him into the toilets so I could rinse his eyes out under the tap, with ds screaming and crying the whole time. I eventually managed to get most of it out, but later on in the afternoon, I noticed he still had sand in the corner of his eye.

And what kind of discipline did this other boy get? Absolutely nothing. His mother acted as though nothing had happened, except for coming into the toilets to make sure that my ds was ok. But for the rest of the morning, ds had toys taken away from him and mud thrown at him by the same child. DS ran up to me at least three or four times, with this other boy behind him trying to hit him. The playgroup leader knows what this boy is like, but she does nothing about it either. I have really had it now and I think the best thing is just not to go back. I feel so angry that this other child has been allowed to make playgroup such a negative experience for ds in the last few months, and cannot understand the mother for not intervening or trying to discipline her son. I hope this doesn't come across as attacking someone else's parenting methods (or lack of them), but I just find the whole thing so disheartening.

Holly I think you should write to playgroup to explain why you are not coming back. You could contact ofstead too if you get no satisfaction from playgroup

I'd agree - they should know why he has been driven away. Children need clearly defined boundaries of behaviour at such groups especially if the parents are more liberal generally - they otherwise have a rude awakening later on when they start school. If you can be bothered why not speak to a couple of the other mums and get their support. Sad for your ds and hope you find a good alternative soon.

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I sort of run a playgroup in so much as I get out all the toys, greet new members and put the toys away the end. That, as far as I am concerned is my only responsibility. Perhaps your playgroup is different but I cannot really understand why you are asking a playgroup leader to intervene and discipline another child when you are not prepared to do it or confront the mother yourself. By withdrawing your child and not confronting the issue is pointless if you are going to feel bitter at having made that decision. Why dont you go to the playgroup and speak to the mother and tell her that you are withdrawing your child as you do not feel she has sufficient control over her child to allow yours to play safely without being pushed, having sand thrown in his face etc etc and perhaps it is she who should decide whether the playgroup is really a suitable environment for her child. By taking control of the situation you will feel much better in yourself knowing you have spoken your peace as opposed to simply removing your child without a word and the mother of the disruptive boy being none the wiser.

Personally, I wouldn't hestitate to tell the other child. 'We don't throw sand. It's not nice and it's hurt X' - if the mother won't say anything I really feel it is perfectly OK to admonish yourself. I'm not suggesting yelling at them or smacking them or anything, just a calm admonition. It can sometimes work absolute wonders in shocking the child into stopping their behaviour. I feel this might be controversial, but I have told off a group of children who were tormenting ds and have no regrets about it at all.

Trifle if you "sort of" run a playgroup dont you have a disicpline policy?

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Trifle - I'm not asking the playgroup leader to discipline the child, I simply think that as the leader, she should be aware of what's going on and be able to act as some kind of intermediary. Makes it easier on the mothers if they have someone to go to when there's a problem.

The other boy's mother is SO well-aware of what her son is like, and she has had so many negative reactions from other parents about her son's behaviour, that I don't see how I could possibly make it any clearer to her. Another mother has already stopped coming to the group because of this child. Regardless of how her son behaves, she still keeps bringing him to playgroup. But at the moment, the only one being affected is my son, because her son singles my ds out.

I have also tried telling off this other child, to no avail - nothing seems to affect him. I've probably told him off about 5 times now for the things he does to ds, but he still keeps doing it.

I have also tried speaking to his mother nicely about the problem, but she doesn't seem to get it. I think she thinks that he's just being a boy, etc etc, but I believe that she is just not disciplining him because she doesn't want to make a 'scene', so instead she lets him get away with it. I've come to this conclusion after watching how she reacts whenever he does something.

Probably the most sensible thing for me to do is to tell someone the reason I am leaving, but at the moment everyone in the group just seems to turn a blind eye because it's not happening to their child.

Holly, it sounds a bit of a nonsense playgroup to me. You've tried your best. You've spoken to the mother and the child. The playgroup leader and the other parents ignore your son's plight. I know I was saying earlier in this discussion, try to call a group meeting about discipline, but from what you say this will never happen. If the playgroup leader and parents won't see the problem you are left whistling in the wind.

So, yes, leave this group. Blame the mother. The more you describe her, the more I can understand your frustration about her fear of making a scene. But blame all the other parents there - and the leader. If it wasn't your son and this boy it would be two others. From what you say, it is not a safe or happy playgroup to be at.

Holly, I agree with tigermoth, maybe you're better off out of it if you've tried lots of tactics to no avail. I do think a playgroup leader would usually intervene in these circumstances whereas if it was a mother and toddler group then maybe not.