Rough boy at playgroup

[Holly02]

I'm just wondering what other mothers think about this. There's a woman at my playgroup who has a nearly 4 yr old boy, and my ds is 3.2. Her son is very rough and every week he can usually be relied upon to hit/kick/throw sand/take other kids' toys away from them. For some reason, her son seems to gravitate towards my ds - sometimes he's ok, but most of the time he is extremely rough and today I caught him a few times kicking my ds, throwing sand over him and taking all of his toys away from him - just for the sake of it.

His mother seems to think that "they're just being boys" and should be left to sort it out themselves. That's fine if your son is the aggressor, but my ds often comes up to me in tears over something this other boy has done to him. I get the feeling she thinks I am being too protective, but I am tired of the things this kid does. Even some of the other mums were telling him to leave my ds alone this morning, but I can tell that this boy's mother gets irritated by other people intervening. I'm afraid I don't see it that way - if I ever see my ds purposely do something to another child, he gets reprimanded for it. What do others think?

I know Jeni- I have been annoyed by people not taking responsibility for their children but I don't think jumping in to shun them is the way to go.

My child has what I would assume to be very obvious problems. He's 4, he can't talk, he's autistic - yet so many people don't notice. For example recently someone joined the playgroup and I was chatting about her. DS1 was running round being particularly screechy and non verbal that day. I chatted to her about school's etc and mentioned about ds1's autism. She seemed to think she was some sort of expert on SN (ex school govenor). And yet at the end she still stood in front of me and said something about her dd (who was 2) being very confused by children her age who can't talk and being scared of them and thinking they were babies!!! Now I can't believe that anyone could possibly be that insensitive so I can only assume she didn't notice. I therefore think it is very dangerous to just isolate someone for their child's behaviour. I have also heard a lot of stories about mum's of children with high functioning autism being isolated becuase of their child's behaviour and I think it is very sad.

I've only been in one situation where I felt that Mum's were avoiding me. I'd joined a sports club for ds1 when he was about 2. At the time he was diagnosed with language delay (I'd been told he defintiely wasn't autistic but that's another story). I thought the club may help him follwo instructions and get him used to structure. I spoke to the leader before hand and asked her view- she said as long as he didn;t hit other children it wasn't a problem if he didn't join in etc, so we went (I knew he wouldn;t hit anyone else). It was a nightmare. It did matter that he couldn't join in. At the time I didn't really know what was going on as I didn't know he didn;t understand anything that was being said to him. I also didn;t understand why he wouldn';t try and throw a ball (didn't kinow he was dyspraxic). It was just awful awful awful. It was so bad I came out and sobbed, rang dh and made him ge tme me out of the clas (I couldn't even bear talking to the instructor). Now if a child has a problem the ear;ly years can be very confusing and problems can makechildren hit etc, which can make life very difficult for the mother. IME the last thing they need is everyone ganging up on them to tell them their child is a monster. They know there's a problem, they don't know what it is and they don;t know how to deal with it (as normal methods do not work). Now of course not every child who is hitting fits into that category- and most don't, but I think it is a dangerous game to make assumptions about parenting to the point where another mother woud be excluded and isolated. EVne with very obviuos problems such as my son's people still don't notice or realise - I see it all the time.

chating to her- not about her- I was moaning about her afterwards! but to my auti friends.

Jenie

Yeah, I do watch him as constantly as having a 2+ yr old and a 11mnth yr old allows. He doesn't get away with anything if I can help it. What I'm saying is, I think there is a smallish element of some mums who relish telling off a child labelled as disruptive. I also feel very uncomfortable telling off other pples kids but that maybe a personal thing. I would prefer for the parent to approach me if they had a problem.

I think this isolating the mother/toddler sounds terrible..........

Jenie

Yeah, I do watch him as constantly as having a 2+ yr old and a 11mnth yr old allows. He doesn't get away with anything if I can help it. What I'm saying is, I think there is a smallish element of some mums who relish telling off a child labelled as disruptive. I also feel very uncomfortable telling off other pples kids but that maybe a personal thing. I would prefer for the parent to approach me if they had a problem.

I think this isolating the mother/toddler sounds terrible..........

Opps overactive clicking resulted in 2 posts. Sorry folks.

oh dinosaur- my ds1 spent half this sports session obsessing about the tape recorder. He kept trying to turn it on (I think he wanted to watch the things spin round). The leader made some sarcastic comment like "oh at least he's good at turning the tape recorder on" or something and I wanted to puch her. When dh rang up she said something like "oh yes your wife did explain that your son can be difficult" - no I f*** didn't _ isad he had language delay and found it difficult to work in groups. Stupid cow. There was also some competition thing where the kids were divided into groups and had to collect different items. He didn't have a clue what was going on - and of course our group came last (to some sighs from other mums).

I can't quite laugh about it now- although I can laugh at the idea of him trying to watch the tape recorder. There's still a little knot in the stomach.....

In fact the whole fear of exclusion/isolation thing again has kept me away from any of those sorts of things with ds2. Too many horrible memories. Now I'm sure he's fine we are venturing out slowly.....!

And dinosaur- ds1 used to climb to the top of slides and just sit there- causing absolute mania and chaos! He seemed totally oblivious to the other children trying to climb over him/get him to move. By this stage I would be hanging half of the slide (6 months pregnant) trailing toddlers trying to get him to budge I cam just imagine your ds wanting to do the same thing again and again

There is only one child at dss playgroup that the parent has asked all others to come to her first, and we all do, so perhaps you should speak up. The others there aren't blessed with phsycich powers and so can't be expected to know how you feel about it.

Ds has never been told off by anyone other than me at our groups but as I said I have the luxury of only having one child there to watch.

I just can't see the point of isolating a mother because of her child's behaviour. What will that achieve in the long run? If behaviour issues just go over her head, chances are she'll not realise why she is being ignored. She'll just think 'what a lot of cliquey mothers' If she has a child with a problem, SN or not, that she's trying to deal with, this isolation will make her feel really picked upon and upset. And then she'll be less likely to open up and discuss her child's behaviour with everyone.

If a group of parents all feel the same way about a child, why not gang up in a more positive way - call a meeting with or without the playleader, for all parents to attend, including the parent of the child, don't name names but use the meeting to revise rules on behaviour or discuss behaviour strategies for the whole group of children?

Also what happens if one of the parents who has isolated another suddenly finds their own child suddenly difficult to control, thinking of that testosterone surge that hits boys around 4 years old? do you then ioslate yourself?

I really think tellings off - whether you tell off a challenging child or an adult - are more easliy done without singling out first - you speak to the group of children or parents to remind them of the club's behavour rules. Give it time, but then if nothing changes, then think about singling out, but possibly this is better done by the playleader than one parent to another.

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robinw- no I'm not getting hng up on my experience to be honest. I've never had problems at playgroup type places as my son isn't (to date) aggressive. He's usually the one being hit.

What I am saying is that I think it is wrong to isolate a mother for a child's behaviour as you cannot know the full story in a place like a playgroup. Most so called professionals seem completely unable to recognise HFA in pre-school child anyway. And i have heard story after story of mother's being isolated when their child has HFA.I think as well when you have a child who has behavioural difficulties it is very easy to blame the parents. DS1's first nursery (a very well known chain) told me -when he was 21months old- that I must be stopping him speaking by speaking over him! I do think that a child't behaviour should be deat with, and that may need some input from a leader, but I think isolating the mother is cruel, and in a pre-school child makes all sorts of assumptions that may well be absolute bollards.

I agree I would be devestated if I got excluded because of ds and his behaviour.

ok, (preparing to be shot down here) but i hate the fact that people put 'bad' behaviour down to disorders all the time. it seems to me that some kids are just naughty, hard to control, and some kids do actually have behavior problems. i know some parents who make no attempt to control their kids, let them get away with bad behavior and wonder why their kids are running rings around them. i know some parents who have kids with SN who have a hard time controlling their kids but have a damn good try at raising their kids nicely and properly. my dd1 does not have SN but can be a terror, has punched people, hit etc, but i always tell her off for it, and for the most part she behaves well. if i didnt tell her off she'd be off the rails. i'm not trying to dispute that some kids have behaviour problems due to something else, but some kids behaviour is down to bad parenting. i hate the lines 'but he'she may have a SEN/SN/ etc etc. didnt anyone watch that bad parenting programme?

(me runs and hides)

misdee _ I agree, what I'm saying though is that its difficult for someone looking in at a playgroup to know what is going on and I don;t think isolating the parent is the right way to go about it. All along I've said the behaviour should be dealt with, but I just can't agree with a bunch of mother's isolating the parent and child. If people are unable to clock that ds1 has problems after spending a couple of hours with him then they have no chance of picking up on anything subtle.

Deal with the behaviour, protect your child, just don't isolate the mother! It just may not be her fault.

but if the mothers excuse is 'they are just being boys' surely that indicates that she thinks her sons behavious is perfectly acceptable. i would expect something to be done, a meeting, the group leaders to speak to the mother, or even get a particuallary 'articulate' (if thats the right word) to speak to the mother about what ia acceptable behaviour. i know if it was either of my dd's being picked on and the mother dismissed it i'd be furious.

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beetroot- behavioural problems or not no child should actually be kicking/hurting another child. There is a lot a school can do, although they may have to deal with it in a different way from usual. The school should be doing something though, not just saying "oh its difficult for him", and he does need to be shown what behaviour is and isn't acceptable. Trouble is the shcool probably isn't getting the support they need from the experts who could offer advice- but don't get me started I can feel another rant coming on.

I do think behaviour that hurts others should not be tolerated and should be dealt with. I just remain very wary of automatically assuming that the mother isn't dealing with it. Having been blamed for everything from ds1 not talking (first nursery) to ds1 having a total fit becuase he couldn't shut the front door when some removal men were coming in and out (I said this would happen and asked MIL to keep ds1 out of the way- she didn't, he had a meltdown and afterwards looking slightly shocked she proclaimed it had happened becuase "someone had said no to him for the first time" I just don't believe that may people really understand what it is like to have a child with behavioural difficulties. This does not make it OK for children to hit or whatever, but I still feel very uncomfortable about jumping in and judging the mother. If they're at school in a way its easy as you can insist that the school do something- they have a duty to protect your child from getting hurt and its not good enough to say that the child has problems. In that case they are not meeting the child's needs (he needs to be taught acceptable behaviour) and they need to chanage the way they are dealing with it.

wasn't meant to be a wink there- I could have punched my MIL!

can I speak as a mother of a normal but sometimes naughty child who used to hit or kick as a toddler preschooler and then when this died down, developed into a child who procrastinated and distracted other children and therefore found it very difficult to work in groups at school?

I really don't think dh or I are or were bad parents either neglecting or spoiling our son, and we certainly tried to control him when we witnessed him hitting another or were told about it etc. At nursery and at his school I made it very clear that I was open to any behaviour suggestions from his teachers and always open to feedback. I honestly don't think we could have tried harder to make him better behaved. No professional said we were lacking anywayor it was our 'fault' and yes, I did ask this question many times. OK I am sure we made some mistakes, as you do if you are first time parents, but if his teachers and the school SEN workers found him a handful, why should we, as untrained first time parents been able to effect a transformation?

The fact that he is better behaved now I put down to his school's efforts, our efforts at home but mostly I just thank my lucky stars.

I know there are bad parents out there. Of course there are. I hear teacher friends of mine wax lyrical for hours on the subject. But I don't think good parents equal good child. For instance, I know a mother at my son's school who has a challenging child, yet her other children are as good as gold. I still get upset if I hear other parents blame parenting skills alone for a child's bad behaviour. If it was that simple, cause and effect, we'd all be experts by now in how to 'design' good children.