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What do you think of Jugurtha?

152 replies

Bumbleconfusus · 20/05/2010 18:55

What do you think of Jugurtha as a boy's name? It's listed on Mumsnet's Baby Name Finder.

This isn't really what do you think, I just wanted to say how annoyed I am at someone putting comments on the name Jugurtha like they have. I can't believe someone put nick name as 'piss face'. Does anyone know how I can report this to MNHQ so they can remove this remark which I think is completely unacceptable!

OP posts:
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scurryfunge · 21/05/2010 17:28

A racist incident is any incident which is perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person

WhatsAllThisThen · 21/05/2010 17:40

Really? so if 99 people said something wasn't racist but 1 person said it was, it's racist?

scurryfunge · 21/05/2010 17:46

According to the Race Relations Act,yes.

WhatsAllThisThen · 21/05/2010 17:50

Oh right. I would have thought it would be something the lines of 'could be reasonably assumed to be offensive' or words to that effect.

scurryfunge · 21/05/2010 18:12

It does seem to be all encompassing....I suppose it's about not having to justify feelings.

WhatsAllThisThen · 21/05/2010 18:57

I guess so. 'Tis a hell of a thing to qualify and then things come up like the Michelle Obama 'nude dress' scandal and you realise 'actually that probably is racist and it never crossed my mind'.

BoldChislers · 22/05/2010 19:21

It's not racism to dislike a name which to your own ear sounds hidesous!! Can't belieeeeeve that accusations of racism were bandied about because Math did not like the name Jugurtha. That is very funny....I can't stand the names Ptolemy and Jugurtha.

BoldChislers · 22/05/2010 19:24

"A racist incident is any incident which is perceived to be racist by the victim or any other person"

I was told overwhelmingly by mostly British MNers that I had no reasonable objection to the use of 'to have a paddy' for to have a tantrum.

Personally, I think that although nobody gives the saying much thoughts, the term has its origins in a racist assumption, so I would prefer British people to respect my objection to it and not use it. I was shouted down like I have never been shouted down on MN.

Bumbleconfusus · 22/05/2010 19:46

I'm sad that your own experience didn't teach you anything then.

I don't think people were saying that it was racist to dislike the name, they were saying it was possibly racist to have written a suggested nick-name of 'piss face', and then for MNers to find this completely acceptable and think it was a fantastic thing to have done, when it was obviously a 'foreign' name.

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 22/05/2010 19:54

"I think if I started taking the piss out of Conchubar or Moshe, or another "foreign" sounding name, there'd be load of angry people protesting about it."

If you took the piss out of it because it was foreign sounding, then that would be closed-minded. But there are reasons besides 'foreign-sounding' for someone to object to a name that's pronounced Cru-HORE.

My point in mentioning the name Conchubar and its drawbacks in the UK was to show that some sounds don't travel well, not that it's foreign. Nobody objected to Jugurtha because it sounded 'forrin' -- the objections were based on whether it was a euphonious name to an English ear.

mathanxiety · 22/05/2010 20:00

Bumbleconfusus, nobody found the name Pissface completely acceptable. Nobody.

And please tell me who on this thread thought it was a fantastic thing to have done.

"for MNers to find this completely acceptable and think it was a fantastic thing to have done, when it was obviously a 'foreign' name."

-- You are making things up here. Nobody came even close to doing anything of the sort.

Bumbleconfusus · 22/05/2010 20:09

please look at skidoodly's comment...
'someone being incredibly amusing more like'

the first 3 comments after my original post were along the same lines, lots of big grins as if to cheer the troll on.

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 22/05/2010 20:28

"mathanxiety
but not Berber ones...
why are you so keen to defend such nastiness anyway?" I'm not defending the nastiness. I'm just not so sure it's racist, or that the name Jugurtha, or Berber history or culture, meant a darn thing to the troll who vandalised the BNF page. I think his target was MN and women in general, not the Berbers.

And Bumbleconfusus, there's a difference between a flippant remark by one poster and everyone finding a nickname 'completely acceptable', a 'fantastic thing' to have done, because of some alleged hostility towards foreign names. Again, I think you're giving the troll far too much credit for intelligence here.

And nobody who posted the grins (they are all the same size, none of them is any bigger than the others, btw) knew that there was a troll involved, so how could they have been doing anything as if to cheer the troll on?

You are reading far too much into this.

nighbynight · 22/05/2010 21:54

They didnt know it was a known and banned troll, but they were still cheering it on. I also found that disgusting.

How do you work out that the target was women, when the attack was directed at a foreign, boys name? I'd say thats reading too much into it.
The more simple explanation, is that the target was the foreign name, which makes the pathetic troll a racist as well as spiteful.

MagalyZz · 22/05/2010 23:16

Why are the posters who don't like the name being told they're racist?! ONly one person and that person is long gone no doubt put the offensive comments into the babyname finder. I just saw the name and thought oh yuck. If some loon wants to call me racist on the strength of that then... okaaaaaaaaaaaaay.

mathanxiety · 23/05/2010 04:29

They weren't 'cheering'. They were seeing some humour there. Humour is an individual thing.

"How do you work out that the target was women, when the attack was directed at a foreign, boys name? I'd say thats reading too much into it.
The more simple explanation, is that the target was the foreign name, which makes the pathetic troll a racist as well as spiteful."

That explanation is neither simple nor logical, nor is it based on any of the known facts about the trollery. It is extrapolation and putting the cart before the horse.
Mumsnet is a site primarily used by women (and called Mums-net because of that?). The readers and users of the BNF are also primarily women, I'd be willing to bet the farm on that. Male trolls who 'invade' Mumsnet are usually men who have a chip on their shoulders against women -- I have encountered some on various threads, and they are usually offensive in a sexist way, a bit like flashers online, iyswim.

HelenMumsnet has stated that she is going through the vandalism of the BNF page and it's taking her ages. The 'humour' on the Jugurtha entry was clearly not an isolated incident where someone directed his spite at a Berber name and only a Berber boy's name that is highly significant from Berber history, or even at other 'foreign' names exclusively, but rather it was an incident where someone directed his irrational anger or fear of women against a resource used by thousands of women.

There is absolutely no evidence that the troll knew anything about the name, even that it was 'foreign'; there is plenty to indicate that he was an equal opportunity basher of the BNF and therefore MN in general.


What if an Italian called you a racist for using a name associated with the death of more than a few Roman soldiers? Would that make you a racist?

What if I decided the name Jugurtha was offensive to me as it incorporates the Irish term for famine (gorta, pronounced 'gurta'). What if I considered the Irish potato famine of the 1840s a cataclysm in Irish history that reached genocidal proportions, since it was essentially a man-made disaster, and food was exported from the country while people starved? Could I call you a racist for proudly using a name that brought that tragedy to mind?

Yes, that's ridiculous.

Could I call many a poster on the MN baby names thread a racist for pooh-poohing names that are very popular in African American families (obviously unknown to them, unless chavvy is a code for African American, which I doubt); they really go to town on them, using them as by-words for lack of taste or good sense in naming a baby -- they would be mortified to think they were being racist, and imo they shouldn't be called racist, because they have no idea the name has a different association elsewhere.

Most people, including those who are crying racism here, simply don't know what they don't know.

What's sad here is that when the word 'racist' is bandied about casually it loses its meaning.

nighbynight · 23/05/2010 16:29

math, well, you carry on defending this casual racism, as it seems that its just an intellectual argument to you. For me, and I guess for Bumble, its our familys identity. Your last post is hammering away at a point that has already been answered several times, by me and others.

MagalyZz · 23/05/2010 16:47

But it's a horrible name! So is Sebastian.

gerontius · 23/05/2010 17:14

If people think it's a horrible name why aren't they allowed to say so?

nighbynight · 23/05/2010 17:53

I guess the very nasty comments on the mn name finder have been removed now. Please read teh thread from the start - this was not just about people giving their opinion.

MagalyZz · 23/05/2010 18:11

There were extremely nasty comments about the names Saskia and Daisy recently. I read the thread, but not the comments on the BNF. However, most people's gut reaction to a name like Jugurtha which sounds like a hodgepodge of harsh syllables to me, is going to be 'ooh, no thanks'. To read racism in to that is really stupid.

nighbynight · 23/05/2010 18:16

If you didnt see the comments, why are you calling the reaction against them stupid?

MagalyZz · 23/05/2010 18:52

Well the title of the thread is "what do you think of Jugurtha?". I know nothing of its origins or meanings. I only know that my gut reaction to it is 'eeeeoooow".

I think, reading this thread, that some people are going to great lengths to be offended. English names and Dutch names also recently had far worse comments on BNF.

nighbynight · 23/05/2010 21:19

The name Jugurtha/Yugurtha is used almost exclusively by Berbers. Furthermore, the huge majority of Jugurthas today are children, because for political reasons, the name started to be used again recently. The deleted comments incited people to bully Jugurthas, by calling them "piss-face". That's a direct attack on a group that overwhelmingly consists of children of one particular ethnic minority. I dont have to go to great lengths to be offended by that.

Blah blah excuses excuses but the poster didnt intend to incite people to bully Berber children blah blah - yes, yes, carry on making excuses

scurryfunge · 23/05/2010 21:36

MagalyZz, people don't go to great lengths to be offended....they are offended...just because you don't understand the significance of a cultural name or didn't mean to offend anyone by likening the name to pissface, doesn't mean it is not racist.Look back to the defintion of a racist incident....it does not matter what the person making the comment means.