Spelling of an Irish name

[HRSC]

I am due to have my first baby (girl) in August. My husband is Irish and I am British and we live in Portugal (which is where I grew up and where the majority of my family lives).

We have decided to give the baby an Irish name and now we are discussing the spelling of the name. The name we’ve chosen in Niamh which is easy to say in Portuguese but is going to be minefield for anyone to try and read (or spell!).

Do we stick with the traditional Irish spelling and she has an issue whenever anyone tries to read or spell her name or do we go for a different spelling which can be read much more easily by non English speaking people? (Like Neve or Nieve etc)

We are not likely to ever move to Ireland, most likely we will stay in Portugal so this will be something that she will have to deal with for her whole life.

What are your opinions on this? My husband and I can’t decide.

*I have a name that Portuguese people struggle to read and it is a pain when I’m booking a restaurant or at at doctors appointments etc so I often just give my middle name which is more translatable when booking restaurants etc)

Of course it can which is precisely what Niamh Ní Hoireabhaird states in her Guardian article.

Fact is that there's no one single authority anyone can point to that states a name can only be pronounced in one specific way. And that there will always be variations on names.

Names even die out in time too and not just Gaelic based names as English based names also die out. That's just life.

Names can be born, evolve, change and die out. Simple as that. So people should just pick whatever name and/or variations they prefer and stick with that.

It's no big deal, really. Culture and language are never static but very dynamic and malleable.

That's a fairly common widely used Irish name. It's not like Caoimhe which is less familiar. Which fewer non-Irish people know or can pronounce or spell.

Or this

It's not pronunciation as much, it's changing the spelling which in turn makes it meaningless.

Hopefully this discussion has made some more aware of why the language is important to so many Irish people. We nearly lost it once through terrorising our people let's not allow it change through arrogance and a sense of entitlement.

That's a poor comparison - Miguel to Migwell. That would be an entirely different name.

Miguel is the Spanish version of the Hebrew name Mikha'el. The English name Michael and the Gaelic Mícheál are further variations of the same original Hebrew name.

Niamh, Neve and Naeve are all variations of the root name, but they don't cease to be Gaelic based names due to different spelling. It's simply personal preference as to which one is chosen.

Migwell is obviously not a variation of Miguel, but Michael is.

Language purists often do more harm to minority languages than they benefit them by arguing about their spelling and pronunciation as @AncientBallerina is suggesting. The most successful languages tend not to be so stuck in one particular way because the world is constantly changing.

A language must keep up with that or disappear.

It’s like saying that Brian is pronounced Brine.

Exactly.

And then you get people who don't even speak Irish loftily offering the American website Irish Central as their source.

Then you get people like you being highly selective by ignoring other sources including Niamh Ní Hoireabhaird who is Irish!

So....let's see your single recognised authority that states a name can only be said or spelt in ONE set way.

I'll wait.....

A parent can choose to spell their child's name any way they see fit, but once you spell Niamh as Neeuv, (or Aoife as Eefa, or Oisín as Uhsheen) it's then a different name, an ‘inspired by…’ name.

You clearly know nothing of the Irish language so why are you trying to assert yourself as some kind of authority. Your anti Irish obsession is so odd.

@DownNative
I agree with the pp who said that the Neev pronunciation is widely used in Ireland and is accepted as a pronunciation, but that it's not actually correct in the Irish language (while Nee-uv is).
The journalist you quote also uses the words 'perfectly acceptable', rather than 'correct'.
You will see too that the Wikipedia article you quote gives pronunciations for the name both in English and Irish - notably two pronunciations are given in English and only one in Irish. There are lots of anglicised pronunciations of names in Ireland so this is in no way unusual, the only thing is to be aware of it.

I do understand why OP wants to make her daughter's life easier though. Ultimately the decision on spelling is completely up to her and her DH. But it's as well to know the full background to a name and how it's generally perceived and pronounced and spelt in it's country of origin, I think. Helps in making an informed decision.

I don't speak Portuguese, but I'm not sure that either Neve or Nieve would intuitively be pronounced as Nee-uv or Neev by a Portuguese person? You have the superior knowledge there OP (I'm relying on google😅), but if the sounds don't match then you're moving even further away from the original name.

Another option is to choose an Irish name that might be more easily pronounced in Portugal. Would something like Fia work in Portuguese at all? But ultimately the decision is yours of course. And congratulations too!

Where did I say a spelling of "Neeuv" is a variation?

I'll wait on that one too....

I note you’ve failed to produce a single authority on how Niamh should be pronounced. Thought so.

Hmm...."Anti-Irish" you say. Its bizarre bordering on the hysterical that you state it's somehow "Anti-Irish" to point out that Niamh, Neve and Naeve are all acceptable spellings in addition to pronunciation of "Neev" and "Nee-av".

Wikipedia, Niamh Ní Hoireabhaird and Irish Central must all be Anti-Irish somehow too! 🤦‍♂️

FYI, Irish Central has Irish writers too and has had Northern Irish writers also on occasion.

I note you’ve failed to produce a single authority on how Niamh should be pronounced. Thought so.

I.speak.Irish.

You do not.

Niamh is a two syllable word.

I don’t know who you think is arrogant and entitled 👀
Certainly not the OP who only wanted to giver her child an Irish name that she loves but would work in the country she lives in. Hardly oppression.

Yes, @LizzieAnt, you're saying the same thing as I am in that "perfectly acceptable" is how most people approach it.

Except for language purists who believe it undermines a language despite the opposite being true.

An anglicised pronunciation is common in Northern Ireland as I know.

The Irish historian Cormac Ó Gráda, associate professor of economics at University College Dublin, noted that:

"Not even the pleasing fashion for Gaelic names marks a return to ‘tradition’; in west Cork children today are more likely to be given ‘re-invented’ or ‘generic’ Irish names like Orla or Ciara or Colm than mainly local ones like Conchubhar or Gobnait."

So, Irish people ARE also reinventing traditional names as well as selecting a spelling variation. Language change is inevitable which is healthy, right?

Interesting to note that in the Republic of Ireland in 2019 Niamh was ranked 54th out of 100, but in 2020 it dropped to 86th. Names like Grace, Hannah, Emily, Sophie and Lucy are much more common names for girls there.

In the girls' top 20, only three Gaelic based names make the list - Fiadh, Éabha and Saoirse.

From this, it shouldn't be surprising that given the popularity of English based names in the ROI that an anglicised pronunciation would become highly acceptable of names such as Niamh. This would extend to alternative spellings of it to some degree too, albeit not in the top 100.

So. Does. Niamh Niamh Ní Hoireabhaird.

What does she say?

Oh yes! She says both are "perfectly acceptable".

Poor attempt at argument from you. So, you have absolutely no authority to draw upon - good to know!

Once again, dear, I speak Irish, you do not. You know nothing of the language

But please, continue making a spectacle of yourself.

If you want the Neev pronunciation, use Naoimh

Could those who want to bicker get their own thread, please? I imagine this stopped being useful to the OP some time ago.

If anyone is making a spectacle of themselves, it's you with circular reasoning which is a logical fallacy.

I mean, I'm not a fluent Gaelic speaker, but that doesn’t mean I've zero knowledge of Gaelic based names. I'm obviously from Northern Ireland, so I know quite a few people with Gaelic based names. After all, I'm descended from O'Manacháin (Monaghan) and Ó Sluaghadhaigh (Slowey).

But you're certainly not more of an authority than Niamh Ní Hoireabhaird....perhaps in your own head you are! Oh dear, indeed....

I mean, I'm not a fluent Gaelic speaker

you're clearly not any kind of 'Gaelic' speaker.

@DownNative To be honest, I think in many cases people don't realise the Neev pronunciation is an anglicised one. It's not a deliberate choice as such, people just use the pronunciation they're familar with. Niamh is by far the most usual spelling in Ireland - I've never met one spelled differently at least - but then of course it causes no problems here such as the OP might face.

I do think a distinction needs to be made when giving advice on Irish names as to which ones are Irish language and which are not - it can be helpful to make a distinction between 'Irish' and 'Irish language'.
For example, Maeve is an Irish name but the spelling has been anglicised. Niall's spelling is true to Irish language, but the usual pronunciation nowadays (Ny-ul) is an anglicised one - again many Irish people don't really realise they're using a anglicised pronunciation in this case. So the process is fairly common, and I think it's sometimes useful to mention this sort of background when trying to advise someone on their choice.
In the case of Niamh there are two usual pronunciations in Ireland, the Irish language pronunciation Nee-uv and the anglicised Neev. But I think we may have strayed a bit from the question OP was originally asking which was to do with spelling 😅

Yet you blatantly ignore those who ARE not only fluent Gaelic speakers, but also called Niamh.

Like Niamh Ní Hoireabhaird! 🤦‍♂️

I am though very familiar with Gaelic based names being Northern Irish myself.

I hope you have a good day and take care now! 👍

I am though very familiar with Gaelic based names being Northern Irish myself.

It's been well-established that you have no knowledge of the Irish language. But I'm sure classes are available if you'd like to learn.

Best of luck.

That's a very fair comment, @LizzieAnt and one I broadly agree with. It's certainly been my experience that anglicised pronunciation and, in many cases including my ancestry, an anglicised spelling variation is very common.

It makes sense when we think about how English based and anglicised names are by far the most common names in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

Languages and cultures are highly susceptible to change which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

As for Niamh, I switch between "Neev" and "Nee-av". Either way, people know exactly which name is meant.

So, thank you for your reasoned, well considered post, @LizzieAnt.

Portuguese is a fascinating language which is difficult for English language speakers, but I did learn some. Currently switching to Spanish as that is easier for English language speakers and I plan to learn Portuguese as a third after that.

Neve sounds like "ne-vi" in Portuguese. Probably similar to the one in Italian and French ("névé").

Neve sounds like "ne-vi" in Portuguese. Probably similar to the one in Italian and French ("névé").

I don't think that particular spelling will work in Portugal to give a sound to match the name Niamh if so.

You can't change the spelling of Niamh and still claim it's Irish.

Why are you so upset? Is your name Migwell...👀