Keeva... Discuss please.

[OnNaturesCourse]

(Key Vah)

Keeva... Your thoughts?

Thanks all.

'There's no K or V in the Irish alphabet'

Someone needs to get the phone books out and inform all the people in Ireland with the surname Kavanagh that they are letting the country down badly.

I'll start with Cavan and Monaghan.

But it's a fact, there IS no K or V in the Irish language. There's also no J, Q, W, X, Y or Z.

Yes, some surnames and placenames have long since been anglicised and are accepted now. However, it's not likely this was done for the happiest of reasons in the first place, and I personally don't agree with anglicising first names (where we get to choose the spelling, unlike surnames where we inherit it) to something that doesn't work in Irish.

Orla for Orlaith, sure, it still works as Gaeilge and makes life easier in English. But Keeva doesn't work in Irish at all.

Common mistake people make but Orla isn't an anglicisation.

I personally don't agree with anglicising first names

So Conor for example, you don't approve of that spelling and think they should be called Conchubhar?

I didn't say Orla was an anglicised version, just that it works in both languages. Conor is the same, and I believe an accepted spelling under the new Irish alphabet that we all use now. Like Orla Vs Órfhlaith.

Caoimhe isn’t quite Queeva or Kweeva in Munster/Connemara Irish though, it’s a v particular vowel sound that is almost impossible to transcribe into English but definitely isn’t Queeva or Kweeva. It comes from deeper in the throat.

Caoimhe = correct.

Keeva = wrong.

End of.

Looks naff spelt Keeva.

It sounds like some kind of food substitute to me like a dairy free spread.

A non common spelling of a name is a massive ballache.
I have spent hours of my life spelling my name, explaining the root of my name, correcting pronunciation etc.
But my gmail email address is "[email protected]"

Kavanagh, Cavan, etc are Anglicised versions of Irish words. There is no letter k or v in Irish.

Caoimhe can be queeva or keeva. Keeva is the pronunciation in Connemara, Donegal, and all points north of about Westmeath. Queeva is Munster Irish. Thanks to Irish being taught in schools, children will learn one or the other from each Irish teacher they have.

Having said all that, I think on balance I prefer the Irish spelling. People will get used to it.

Kavanagh, Cavan, etc are Anglicised versions of Irish words. There is no letter k or v in Irish.

I know this. But most Irish surnames have been anglicised to some extent. So I don't understand why people get so hung up on the 'authentic' spelling of first names. Especially when most Irish people can't even speak the language.

I'm not against 'proper' spellings I just think in some situations, such as naming a child who won't grow up in Ireland, that going for a phonetic spelling might be an equally legitimate choice.

To use my earlier example, no one makes a fuss of the spelling of Kevin and insists that it should be Caoimhín.

As far as I can see the only fuss people make about Kevin is to insist what an awful name it is

It means a subterranean meeting room where i live. But it's spelled kiva. Just fyi.

I think Keeva is a horrible butchering of Caoimhe. Kevin comparison doesn't hold up as those names have different pronunciations, or certainly do in my area.

Spell it Caoimhe or don't use it. Kevin/Caoimhin is completely different.

I'd say it's slightly different, not completely different. It's still an Irish K name that's widely accepted whereas Keeva is an Irish K name that is widely rejected.

There are plenty of girls in Ireland called Keeva with that spelling?

Off topic but could someone explain how to pronounce a few of the main Gaelic sounds?

I would love to be able to look at Niamh and know why it sounds like “Neeve” to me.

In Irish MH at the end of a word makes a V sound, as in Niamh. If MH precedes a slender vowel (e or i), as in Caoimhe, it also makes a V sound. But if the MH precedes a broad vowel (a, o, u)it then makes a W sound.

I'm trying to think of a name with a mha or mho or mhu string in it...

www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/gaeilge/donncha/focal/features/irishsp.html

CandyYumYum

“I'm trying to think of a name with a mha or mho or mhu string in it...”

Your link has Samhain in it, does that count?

Yes Samhain is pronounced sow-un. Sow like the female pig.

Actually there's an American band called Samhain and their fans generally pronounce it as sam-hane which makes me shudder a little, but it's unsurprising as how the heck would any American pronounce that word except as sam-hane

I know this. But most Irish surnames have been anglicised to some extent. So I don't understand why people get so hung up on the 'authentic' spelling of first names. Especially when most Irish people can't even speak the language.

Yes, most have been anglicised, but all Irish surnames have an Irish version. Most Irish people at least know the Irish version of their surname even if they don't use it. Some opt to use the Irish version. Some just use it for Irish college or their Irish teacher may use it for Irish class. Both are officially recognised. Some families always use the Irish version, through multiple generations.

If you choose an Irish forename, nobody has to explain that they haven't joined the IRA just because they are now the Breathnachs and no longer Walshs. (Possible exception is Saoirse but only just). I think there is also a genuine rejection of Oirish-ness and faux Paddyism in general among a solid section of Irish people. There are a good few people who are out and proud where support for Irish is concerned.

I suspect people are concerned at the anglicisation of Irish forenames because while the altered surnames are more or less established and it takes a bit of an effort to change to the Irish version, the forenames are completely under parents' control and they genuinely want an Irish element to their child's full name name. I think there are people who fear creeping anglicisation will eventually have the effect of squeezing out Irish language choices, with relatives and friends feeling justified in complaining about how hard it is to write Lasairfhiona or Caoilfhionn or Eoghan, just as you see on many MN threads only with pronunciation commented on, and kindly suggesting that a watered down spelling would make life easier for a child growing up in Malahide.

........
Ó Murchú/ní Mhurchú
(There's your broad vowel with MH preceding).