Opinions on Sorley?

[DoveDave]

Thanks!

No one is disputing that sorely, sawley and sorley sound different in a Scottish accent. What some of us are pointing out is that to several million British people all three words sound exactly the same.

I find it hard to believe you've never watched BBC or ITV television news or listened to someone speaking who is not from Scotland. You surely must have heard, say, David Cameron or Theresa May at some point and noticed that they have a not-Scottish accent where the 'r' is not rhotic (or rolled/sounded in the middle or at the end of words.)

I hope the op's surname isn't bottom, finger or vexed.

Oh this was our first choice for DS! Name means a lot in DHs family lineage, but didn't because of the connotations with 'sore.' Such a shame because it's a lovely name, I would say only if you are living in rural Scotland

I don't like listening to them either but it's hard to avoid at certain points. Even if you never catch them, there are scores of people on the TV (actors, comedians, politicians) who speak with London or other non-rhotic accents.

I was so at sorley/sorely that I found a pronunciation

Still sounds almost exactly like sorely, but with a tiny 'uh' sound in the middle.

Re seveal earlier postings. There is a BIG, BIG difference between Scottish Lowland Scots and Gaelic-influenced English in Scotland.

Scots is an independent language with a fabulous literary heritage. It combines northern early English (Anglo-Saxon), Scandinavian languages, Dutch, French (the Auld Alliance), Latin (the pre Reformation Church) with interesting bits of Gaelic.

As someone from a Gaelic speaking area I would not venture to comment on modern Scots. But there are a great many people who still speak the language. The words and accents and pronounciations are very different between Gaelic and Scots. But both are equally important within Scotland today.

With respect, Ria, that video is rubbish. The speaker has an American accent!! Why should he know how to pronounce a Gaelic name.

I'm pretty sure the speaker is a robot flora, but fair enough!

Well, I'd say it like a combination of sore and poorly.

I'd agree that the robot is just saying 'sorely' slowly.

In fact, for those still being kept awake by this issue, the thing to do is check out real people, many from Scotland, on YouTube speaking about Sorley MacLean's poetry.

I have just listened to five different Scottish people saying his name and honestly, for me, it's really hard to hear a difference between that and what I think a Scottish person saying 'sorely' would sound like. I'm a linguist too (I mean, I speak and have studied several languages and know bits of lots of others) so I've tried really hard. It's very hard to hear as a non-native Gaelic/Scottish speaker.

No, that's one thing we can be sure of - Scottish people don't say 'sorely' like this. Other people do, I know. I hear it, but more than this, I see previous posters explaining how they pronounce it.

Ontop It's the difference between sore = saw and sor = sohr (the nearest equivalent is something like the vowel sound in 'gone').
One just possible analogy is Torquil - which does NOT sound like Torkwil - or the place name derived from it - Torquil's Ford = Acharacle (Ach-ath-ar-ach-cle, but the first two syllables are almost unvoiced;
in other words, in English =Acth-ah-ra-cull).

It IS very difficult to explain conventional spelling, but so many words in Scottish Gaelic try to spell out sounds which are mostly a matter of breathing and emphasis. (Native Gaelic speakers can explain this better than I can.) However, ten days among Gaelic speakers and I'm sure you'd get a grip on the pronounciation. For anyone used to languages, it's not intrinsically difficult. And, in case people forget, Celtic languages are closely related to Latin and Greek. For instance, the name for the senior man/master of ceremonies at a traditional gathering like a ceilidh is 'Fear an Tigh' (= father of the house). But just a few moment's thought make it it easy to realise that 'fear' = the same as the Latin 'vir' = ie the root word for man.

How about spelling it Somhairle?

Pronounced (approximately) 'So-ur-leh'. You eliminate the '-ley' ending that makes people think you're saying 'sorely'.

(Disclaimer - I speak Irish and I am hearing the Irish pronunciation in my head).

Somhairle

I read that as Sow(as in pig not to plant)-our-lee

I believe you're right and I could hear it if I heard enough people pronouncing the words but it's a subtle difference that isn't significant in English (just as it's really hard for English speakers to hear the difference between 'tlearly' and 'clearly' as we don't expect 'tl' so mishear it as 'cl').

I have spent a long time listening to various pronunciations of Sorley so now I just need to find some Scottish speakers (not necessarily Gaelic speakers) saying 'sorely' and Sorley together. Not sure that it's on YouTube yet....