In Scotland Wales and Ireland (UK bit)

[JazzAnnNonMouse]

Is it more common to have a very scottish Welsh Irish name or a more English easily pronouncible one in a say a class of kids?
Does this depend on areas eg close to borders are more anglicised? Or just those with english connections (family possible moves etc)
There are so many names that are so beautiful that I'd never heard of before reading them on here but theyre almost never pronounced how I expected

Where are you, MrsJayy? Gaelic has been spoken in most of Scotland at some point, and around about the year 1000, there were five different languages in Scotland: Pictish, Cumbric, Gaelic, Scots and Norn, so accents and names varied hughly. Only Scots and Gaelic remain as spoken languages today but Gaelic is valid almost everywhere.

I didn't say it wasn't valid it just isn't spoken im central scotland where it is probably was a mix of scots and Gaelic

I'm not Scottish but was under the impression that Gaelic was never spoken in the lowlands, hence people's resistance to Glasgow train stations being given Gaelic signage?

Or is it that Gaelic hasn't been spoken down there in many, many centuries as compared to other parts of Scotland?

You are right on both I think

Horatio your dissertation sounds amazing! I'd love to hear some of the Scots names which are out of use now!

I know a wee girl with middle name James, after her Dad, I think it's lovely.

In my experience in N Ireland you tend to get quite a lot of Irish names, with Irish spellings, in families who identify strongly as Irish rather than British. And then lots of very 'English' names in families who feel strongly about their British identity. Although by English, to be honest it is probably more accurate to say 'Biblical'. Biblical names are very popular here.

Obviously all this is a bit of a generalisation but it is often the case in my experience. And there are issues within that, because, to using my own situation as an example, I strongly considered using quite an Irish name for my first child, because it is a beautiful name, but I live in a very loyalist area and I like my windows all in one piece, and my car not being burnt out. And I didn't want my child getting beaten up at school for being 'the wrong sort' so I chose a name that would be socially acceptable instead. Sad but true.

As for the OP and the 'I can never remember which part of Ireland is in the UK'. You have blown my mind. This isn't even politics or history, this is just knowing your own country (assuming you are in within the UK yourself). For example, do you never see the news on TV and notice that they provide a weather forecast for England, Scotland, Wales and N Ireland? Or that they report on the football teams of England, Scotland, Wales and N Ireland? Or that they report on crimes committed in England, Scotland, Wales and N Ireland? Do things like that not give some clue as to the countries that make up the UK?

JollyHockeyGits

I'm currently working on a website devote to Scottish names, only it keeps getting delayed as the research is so interesting and I keep discovering new (old) names!

For those unsure of the spread of Gaelic and other Scottish languages, this 10-part history is very useful:

newsnet.scot/archive/a-history-of-scottish-languages-parts-1-and-2/

And to confuse things a bit more, the Irish-identified people in Northern Ireland are not exclusively Catholic. There is a sub-group of Protestants who are usually Anglican if religious and who might describe themselves as "Irish" or "Anglo-Irish" rather than as "British" who will give their children (girls more than boys) names from Irish mythology. Also Protestants working in academia/ culture-related jobs.

'For those unsure of the spread of Gaelic and other Scottish languages'

That would be most Scottish people then?

'There is a sub-group of Protestants who are usually Anglican if religious and who might describe themselves as "Irish" or "Anglo-Irish"'

Personally if someone described themselves as being Anglo Irish I'd assume they had a title or a grand crumbling pile somewhere.

Ugh. I kind of wish I hadn't asked in the first place though through some flaming and patronising at least I've learnt something!

Sorry again to those I offended. I do find UK great Britain brittish Isles etc can be confusing. How the politics works with eg some devolution is confusing too.

I honestly didn't know that southern Ireland was offensive/wrong. I've heard it described as such by a range of different people and as pp suggsted assumed it was much like n/s Korea description.

I do live in the UK and do pay attention to the news but honestly we hear so much less about northern ireland than we do Wales and Scotland. I think statistically if you looked at news reports in England I would be right in saying that.

I'm definetly going to read more on Irish history (can someone clarify for me though now when I say Irish what does that actually include? The whole island?)

It was ignorant of me not to remember which part of Ireland is part of the UK.

Thank you to those that did answer the question re names. Pp mentioned that there would be eg French names I wouldnt immedietly be able to pronounce... not really sure what your point was tbh.

What I was actually interested in discussing was the evolution of naming in countries with English spoken as well as other languages that in some parts have a decline of use for various reasons.

The different way to pronounce mahri for eg is really interesting. In gaelic is m always pronounced v?

Oh and pp I never watch the weather - it's never accurate

That Scottish language link is brilliant - thank you.
I was born in Scotland. I didn't realise the complexity of the languages. Nor did I actually know that Scots and gaelic (autocorrects to garlic every time!) Werent the same/offshoots of the same language.
Fascinating. Thank you

My understanding of how the islands are named.

England is in the main bulk of land but doesn't include Scotland or Wales. They are geographically attached to England and that whole lump of land is called Britain. Even if another country invaded and re-named the country, the lump of land is called Britain.

The British Isles includes Britain and the 'bits' around it, e.g. Portsmouth, The Isles of Scilly, Mann, Hebrides etc.

The United Kingdom includes Northern Island.

Ireland is the name for both the piece of land, and the nation which is Ireland. Some people refer to Ireland as the Republic of Ireland as a way to differentiate it from the whole piece of land, or to describe its constitution, or out of error.

There are other islands which come under the protection of the United Kingdom, but they are not part of the UK. They recognise Elizabeth II as their monarch. These include places such as the Channel Islands and Tristan D'Cunha.

Then there is the Commonwealth. Basically, these are places we appropriated and managed to populate to such an extent that white people became dominant and we destroyed the people already living there. Eventually, rather than face the embarrassment of losing another country, like we did the US, we allowed them to have their own parliament and autonomy, stopped making them pay taxes, and have given them rights to migrate to the UK in a slighter easier way than non-Commonwealth countries. Australia, Canada, and New Zealand are the best known Commonwealth countries, but I've just checked and there's 53 countries in the Commonwealth.

I know chuff-all about the traditions for names, though.

Wait - not all Commonwealth countries recognize the Queen as their Head of State, but they were all once part of the Empire. Some do still recognize the Queen as their Queen, others just recognize her as the Head of the Commonwealth. Membership is voluntary.

Wow I've just read this whole thread.

I don't understand the OPs question?
Can't believe she couldn't have googled about Northern Ireland though?

I have no clue what would happen to NI if Brexit went ahead. I know there was big campaign to stay in from Scotland but actually heard nothing about NI.

Tbh if you look at mainstream media they really don't talk about NI as much as they do England Wales and Scotland.

The link about Scottish language evolution is really really interesting. Does anyone know of a good one for Irish/Welsh?

I think the Irish/English names issue in N Ireland is probably a little bit more complex than the equivalent in Scotland and Wales because here even something as simple as what you decide to name your child is so loaded. I know a little girl from a Protestant family who has a beautiful Irish name, because her very middle class parents live in the sort of circles where these things don't matter. But her very working class grandparents won't use her name in public because they are scared of what people will think. I think it will take several generations for that mindset to die out.

I was just interested in naming trends ie someone up thread commented that the further up Scotland you go on average the more gaelic pronounciation there is eg mahri

Horatio I was so interested to read your post sounds like a fascinating topic, but it made me wonder about something. In Ireland in the past, particularily in my parents generation, there was a huge trend of naming your child in English on their birth cert for formal usage and maybe because it was seen as the right thing to do but the child would then be called the Irish version of the name in common usage. In my father's very large family half of the children would have had this scenario. My FIL the same, my mother's family the same for example and they were all spread across the country. I would imagine though cannot say for certain that a similar practice may have existed in Scotland. Did you come across this?

Wow really treacle? So in NI having a traditionally Irish name could be seen as a political expression?

Jazz yes, I think so. Not everyone sees it that way, of course, loads of people don't. But if you look up NISRA (NI Statistics and Research Agency) baby name statistics you can see baby names by council area. If you know the areas, you can see the trends very clearly in that the most popular names in the towns that are traditionally 'Nationalist' areas are often Irish names. Then if you look at the towns that are traditionally 'Unionist' the most popular names are the English ones. There are obviously exceptions but I think it is a general trend.

Your question about an M being a V sound in Gaelic. Not 100% about Scots Gaelic (is that the term?) but in Irish it's Mh together that becomes a v sound. For example the mh at the end of the name Niamh.