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Caitrìona, Ùna and Mhàiri

212 replies

dunkydunker · 15/11/2011 00:58

What do you think?

I want something Scottish but not very very obvious (DH is very very far away from Scottish)

OP posts:
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RonnieBirtles · 16/11/2011 20:46

What the heck is wrong with Mairead?

Muireann is a fabulous name, btw!

Irish Gaelic pedants, please settle something else for me.

Oisin (sorry, can't do fada on my keyboard). I have known two Oisins in RL who pronounce it Oh-sheen. However, a friend from Donegal recently told me it is Osh-een (or sort of Uh-sheen in her accent) and that Oh-sheen is definitely wrong. Puzzled, as the two Oisins I know are both very definitely Irish (and I am a plastic paddy second generation Irish).

DigOfTheStump · 17/11/2011 08:12

mirren or mirrin are lovely

DigOfTheStump · 17/11/2011 08:19

And I also love Donald

JennyPiccolo · 17/11/2011 09:23

Not so nice for a girl though.

AitchTwoOh · 17/11/2011 12:11
Grin
DigOfTheStump · 17/11/2011 13:47

Lol

CurrySpice · 17/11/2011 13:59

Oh my goodness this is the most interesting thread I've read in ages :o even though I don't speak a word of gaelic - although I do have an Isobel

What has really piqued my curiosity is the idea of a spelling reform...what the heck?! How would that work? Are you allowed to resist? That is an idea totally alien to an English speaker although my Dutch DP has told me about changing spellings in Dutch but I don't know if that was part of a wholeslae reform!

I LOVE this kind of thing!!

CurrySpice · 17/11/2011 13:59

wholesale

midnightexpress · 17/11/2011 14:33

Aksherly OP, I think what you should do is what proper old highlanders did and just turn a boy's name into a girl's name. My grandad's neighbours were three ancient siblings called (I won't attempt the Gaelic versions) Red Duncan, Black Duncan and...Duncina (hard 'c'). Grin The local graveyards there are stuffed with Williaminas, Alexandras and the like. One suspects their parents were perhaps just a little bit hoping for a boy...

mollschambers · 17/11/2011 14:47

Not hoping for a boy, just named after men. I have two uncles with the same name - they were named after different people.... I have an Aunt (by marriage) called Archina. Bless her. Hasn't lived in Scotland for forty years either....

I'm from the most Gaelic of Gaelic places. Every Catriona I know pronounces it Katreena (or Kuh-tree-una if they are a bit more teuchy). Cah-tree-ona is a bit weird to me tbh.

mathanxiety · 17/11/2011 15:08

Your Donegal friend is right, RonnieBirtles. It is either Ush-een or Osh-een, depending on regional accent. It couldn't be Oh-sheen unless the O had a fada, which it doesn't normally though the two you know might have tacked fadas on.

Nothing wrong with Mairéad -- it normally has a fada on the E but sometimes people use a fada on the first A also, making the pronunciation Maw-raid instead of Mah-RAID.

An Irish 'Caitríona' would need to have the two Is there on either side of the consonants. If a slender vowel precedes a consonant then then the consonant must be followed by a slender vowel (I and E are slender).

Spelling reform in Irish was undertaken very successfully during the last century. The letter H was added in place of the dot over a consonant to indicate lenition (softening) of the consonant where grammar dictated a change in spelling and pronunciation. Many superfluous letters were cast aside in favour of more streamlined spellings although with the sound preserved -- I think this task is far easier when a language is only spoken by a minority and basically mostly taught in schools as opposed to one used daily by millions.

One example of spelling reform is the name Mairéad, which was reduced from Mairghréad via Maighréad to its current form. The old spelling Maighréad is recalled in the Máiréad form, as it would have been pronounced Maw-raid in some accents. Another example of spelling reform in action is the slimming down of Orfhlaith via Orlaith to Orla. The old spelling indicates the meaning better (flaith = princess) but the pronunciation is the same no matter how you spell it.

macsaid · 17/11/2011 19:21

curryspice the spelling and orthographic changes seem to have originated with the old exam board (now the SQA) and go back as far as 1985 so not really new. It would not really have made sense to resist as it made things easier and more consistent for users of the language although some still comment on preferences for some aspects of the old system.

I agree moll, boys names were not chosen for reasons of compensation but rather to observe the tradition of the time which was to use the family names and could mean that in one family you might have small Donald, young Donald, red headed Donald etc.

Orla1 · 17/11/2011 21:08

I imagine for the child it would be very irritating in later life when Irish and Scottish people constantly tell her that her name is "wrong". We are Irish and my child was born abroad so I wanted an Irish name with an easy spelling. I went with a very anglicized spelling of an Irish name, but a common one which I found acceptable. I couldn't quite bear to use a family name, Caoimhe, as Americans would have butchered it, and Kiva just isn't the same to me.

CurrySpice · 17/11/2011 23:27

Thank you for answering my questions about spelling reform. Very very interesting. It has led me to read up on Dutch reform and how well accepted that is. Mostly it was done to "dutchify" foreign words which had entered the language and is only partially accepted in the Netherlands eg government uses reformed words, the media does not always.

Very confusing but very fascinating!

midnightexpress · 20/11/2011 14:23

Thanks curry and mac - that's interesting. I suppose it also makes calling the DC in for tea nice and straigthforward.

'Donaaaaaaald!' and 5 children come a-runnin'.

Get0rf · 21/11/2011 19:48

This is a great thread.

I think the winner of the best suggestion of a name in a MN baby names thread of all time would be jennypiccolo 's DH's suggestion of Babbity Bowster!

mumbrane · 21/11/2011 21:22

Ah, Caoimhe. Pronounced Kweeva by some, Keeva by others. Why?

Also Saoirse, which strictly speaking is Seer-sha, but my southern Irish father and his family all pronounce it more like Sare-sha.

mathanxiety · 22/11/2011 04:13

Depends on regional accent.
Kweeva is Munster Irish; Keeva is Connacht (and possibly Ulster too, but I'm not very familiar with the Ulster/Donegal accent).
Again, Seersha is Connacht (and possibly Ulster) and Sare-sha is Munster accent.

ScotFree · 22/11/2011 14:06

Just for the record, my name is 'Seonaid' pronounced 'Shona' (which I believe isn't correct Gaelic). When I lived in Scotland, it was mostly fine (though it was pronounced 'shen-aid' at my graduation), but now I live in London it causes me such a lot of trouble (people can't spell it, people can't pronounce it, new people take ages to work out what you're called, etc.). I've called my son something very straightforward!

ljl30 · 24/02/2012 09:20

I totally agree. Use the correct spelling & don't make up names. Loads of kids out their with a name & parents have added 'idh' on the end to make them sound Gaelic...either use a Gaelic name properly or don't bother!!

Rinkan · 24/02/2012 10:47

Oh, love this thread. Born and bred in Scotland, a total language geek and self-confessed pedant. Had vaguely heard some people say that "you should pronounce Mhairi as "varry" and had no idea that it was wrong. And vv taken aback to learn that Hamish is also wrong!

My question is, if 'Mhairi" is the vocative of Mairi, of which name is Hamish the vocative?

v nostalgic to hear about the vocative case as last time was on high school Latin (my Latin teacher had a baby called Cairistiona! Think she was a bit of a Gael too). We used to translate vocative in English as "o slave" given that no equivalent spelling change in English, so I suppose that to call a child "Mhairi" is like calling her "o Mary"...

NapaCab · 24/02/2012 18:09

Ooooh, a Gaelic pedants thread! Lovely... always popular in the baby names section

Hamish is the vocative of Seamus (Irish spelling, think Scots-Gaelic one is Seamas) i.e. James in English.

The M(h)airi thing is indeed annoying for Gaelic-speakers to read and I found it odd when I first met DH's cousin whose name is Mhairi. Why use 'Mhairi' as a proper name but not 'Hishbel' or 'Heonaigh' or 'Chaitriona'?? Possibly because the difference between 'm' and 'v' sounds is so strong? I think I actually came across the spelling Varry once - that's one to make a linguist's skin crawl...

Anyway, OP, if you haven't been scared off by the pedants then I love the names Ishbel and Eilidh, personally. They're Scottish but not obvious choices like Kirsty or Fiona.

Rinkan · 25/02/2012 03:10

So is Hamish the Gaelic spelling of the vocative of Seamas?

Groovee · 25/02/2012 03:31

Dh wanted Isla or Iona but I went for Eilidh. I couldn't get passed a friends dog being Isla and I had a key child called Iona. Catriona was a consideration. Friends have used Morven, Shona, Muirne. Most recently Ceitidh has appeared and I love the spelling of Katie like that.

Always wondered how Clodagh was pronounced.

Groovee · 25/02/2012 03:31

I thought Hamish came from James

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