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Caitrìona, Ùna and Mhàiri

212 replies

dunkydunker · 15/11/2011 00:58

What do you think?

I want something Scottish but not very very obvious (DH is very very far away from Scottish)

OP posts:
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AitchTwoOh · 15/11/2011 20:58

HAH! you wanna give ulpan a try, mate. they are sticklers for pronouncing anna as if your tongue is trying to make a break for it through your teeth. Grin

fluffystabby · 15/11/2011 21:05

What about Senga then?

I know a Senga......

GretaGarble · 15/11/2011 21:11

About Isabel and other names with vowels - it's a long time since I spoke Irish but I seem to remember the the vocative is a hIsabel.

Libra · 15/11/2011 21:15

I was about to say Senga!

Lots of Vhairis in my classes at university - and isn't there one on Radio Scotland?

Seonaidh?

AitchTwoOh · 15/11/2011 21:16

ishbel... which i think is actually iseaball or something equally gael-bonkers.

Libra · 15/11/2011 21:19

Iona? Erin?

AberdeenAngusina · 15/11/2011 21:23

Aitch - I sort of pull my tongue back pronouncing Anna - sort of relaxed tongue for English and tense tongue for Gaelic. I'm trying to get my tongue to make a break for it through my teeth, but Anna isn't what's coming out.

AberdeenAngusina · 15/11/2011 21:25

And now DS has come through to see if I've taken a funny turn...

What about Mairi Sine? - knew one at University. Known as "Cherry"

AitchTwoOh · 15/11/2011 21:28

hahahaha.

OhBuggerandArse · 15/11/2011 21:29

Back on the 'is it mean to say it's wrong' thing. Sorry if this goes on a bit.

There are all sorts of reasons why those mis-spellings come about - I suppose it's possible that some of the original Mhairis and Vairis happened because people had a memory of the way in which the name was often used in the vocative when speaking Gaelic, probably within their own families, but because they'd lost the language didn't have enough Gaelic themselves to understand the grammatical significance of the shift in pronunciation & spelling.

Don't underestimate literary influences, either - big spikes in the incidence of Hamish, for instance, in the late 1820s which I bet is due to Walter Scott; and there are funny spikes in the occurrence of Mhairi which I bet also have something to do with literary fashions, some really awful pseudo-Celtic stuff among them.

There's hyper-correction too, of course - people knowing that Gaelic seems to have a lot of extra h's, and sticking them in for good measure. Stella MacCartney's husband Alasdhair is a good example of that.

But I'm not sure it's always that benign - we have to remember that all this takes place in the context of a 300 year old official campaign to stamp Gaelic out, prevent it from being spoken, disenfranchise people who did, and denigrate and remove their cultural heritage. In that context saying things like 'oh it doesn't matter how you spell/pronounce it you can choose whatever you like' smacks to me of the kind of dismissive - in fact downright hostile - attitude towards that value of that culture, language and heritage that allowed those anti-Gaelic policies to hold sway for so long. Fits easily into a colonialist view-point - 'we can take it and do what we like with it because we're basically superior to them'.

That's a message that's easily internalised, and absorbed by people who should be able to see themselves as owning that cultural heritage - particularly when they've had the linguistic tools that would enable them to resist it taken away from them - so many Scottish and other families do end up continuing 'wrong' spellings and usage, because they don't have the language, or the political awareness, or the impetus, to do things differently. Or because their granny spelt it that way and they loved them, which I don't discount.

I suppose why this spelling business exercises me to the degree it does is that it seems a relatively simple way to give a little respect to a culture and a language, and to try and understand it better - we're all richer for that, surely?

AitchTwoOh · 15/11/2011 21:39

stirring stuff, ohbugger, and very true.

macsaid · 15/11/2011 21:44

Very well expressed ohbugger especially the bit about giving respect to a culture and language. By doing so you also show respect to the individuals whose heritage is that culture and language and who, believe me, continued to be treated with hostility during their enforced exiles in the central belt of Scotland as recently as 30 years ago.

Nowadays, in part thanks to the Gaelic schools and the Gaelic TV channels, as well as the more enlightened and inclusive attitudes which generally prevail in our society towards minority groups, the Gaelic speaking people of the Highlands and Islands are rarely ridiculed as they once were for their language, their accents, their general demeanour and perhaps their natural good manners and courteous ways.

JennyPiccolo · 15/11/2011 21:44

Well, most mis-spellings and variations of names came from a time when literacy wasn't great. Researching my own family tree, ive found different spellings by the same person, of their own name in census forms, marriage certificates and stuff like that. so if that can change within a lifetime, accepted spellings can change between generations.

Another point, is it bad for the promotion of the Gaelic language, for Gaelic names (even wrong ones) to be popular? I think a lot of non-Gaelic speakers see it as a tribute to their heritage to give a child a Gaelic name. Yes, it would be a greater tribute to learn and speak Gaelic, but these things will not happen overnight.

AitchTwoOh · 15/11/2011 21:49

they are happening, though, jenny, slowly but surely...
i do find the gaels a completely completely forrin culture, i must say. i do my best but i am far too weegie (as in gobshitey) to ever be well-liked i think.

JennyPiccolo · 15/11/2011 21:57

i know they are, Gaelic is much more popular now even from when i was a wean.
Yeah, im a weegie, wide as the clyde as well.

Don't really want to out myself (probably will) but my brother speaks and teaches a lowland Gaelic dialect (there are very few speakers of it) which apparently makes allowances for the glottal stop and other weegie nuances. Maybe he fibs to his pals about his sister's wrong name, who knows.

JennyPiccolo · 15/11/2011 21:59

p.s. I am aware that my name is a different one in Gaelic. I'm not really sure how to articulate how i reconcile this in my head. I just think lots of things get warped over time, and using the pretty-sounding vocative of a name isn't really the worst thing you could inflict on your wean.

AitchTwoOh · 15/11/2011 21:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OhBuggerandArse · 15/11/2011 22:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

dunkydunker · 15/11/2011 22:02

I know about the whole Mhàiri thing (and no not a gaelic speaker) but it was my Granny's name. And I don't really expect the gaelic grammar to be a big thing in sourthern england.

OP posts:
AitchTwoOh · 15/11/2011 22:02

oooohnoooo are we talking about the same person? metal bands? i am thinking of someone with sideys. are you thinking of a long-haired chap?

AitchTwoOh · 15/11/2011 22:03

but did you read ohbugger's post, dunky?

McQueasy · 15/11/2011 22:05

What about caera/Ciara Niamh Eilidh or Afton??

JennyPiccolo · 15/11/2011 22:13

i feel ive said too much! Dont mind being outed on here but not in real life, iyswim.

OhBuggerandArse · 15/11/2011 22:19

Understood - all suggestions withdrawn and forgotten!

AitchTwoOh · 15/11/2011 22:21

can get them deleted if you like?

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