Sorcha... pronunciations?

[pinkytheshrinky]

I know that for the most part this name is pronounced Sor-kha but I met a nice older lady years ago who was a Sor-sha - I do really like this name and it is top of the list for my new dc. What do you think?

I do also have two other dds with Irish names who's spellings have been Anglicised so I do have form for this....

Sur-ka, it's Irish for Sarah which is my name

No didn't mix them, haven't mentioned them! Not me............!

I know Saoirse as in Saoirse Ronan - but that is seer-sha no? Different name entirely - different meaning and all

SorchaTallulah - a very interesting point you make about the English struggling with the "Irish" pronounciation of Sorcha - it can become a very harsh-sounding name without the benefit of a melodic Irish accent! Maybe that's why I (and others who are living in the UK), prefer the softer and easier Sor-sha. Once you are told how to say Sor-sha, the average Brit won't get it wrong, but I dread to think how your name gets mangled.

I asked DD2 what she thinks of her name. She loves it, although she said that most people when they saw it written down didn't know how to pronounce it (but that would be true however it were pronounced). But she loves the fact that there aren't many Sorchas about.

Like you, OP, I'd been stocking it up for years before I could use it, having met a Sorcha (Sor-sha) many years ago.

OP, I meant that people call me different things because the area I used to live in doesn't teach Irish, doesn't believe they ARE the Irish and actually burn people's houses down for being Irish haha. Irish has pretty simple phonetics rules so I think most people with any experience with the language would be able to look at something and know how to pronounce it.

Unrelated, but there was a girl in my class in school called Niamh but it was spelt Naimh. She used to get so angry at people for getting it wrong or for "accidentally" calling her Nahv.

Seoirse is pronounced Shor-sha because of the se at the beginning?

My nickname as a child by my Mummy was shaw-shaw

Would be weird if it were the same Sorcha, Cointreau?

Sorcha - the thing is even when I looked this up in books and online there were massive differences in pronunciations which is why I asked. I find it amazing that one name can be said in so many ways.

I agree without a lovely Irish accent it could sound a bit hard and this is why a softer pronunciation has come about?

Yeah, basically an e or and i on either side of an s on its own makes a sh sound! So you could have Soirse/Sóirse or Soirsa/Sóirsa as a phonetic version of this name that you like, that would be the single S rather than the sound in Seoirse.

The softer pronunciation could very well have come from people getting the name mixed up with Saoirse or with Seoirse (think I mentioned that above?). It could have been something like a phonetic spelling of Seoirse or something similar and the registrar just happened to spell it the same as Sorcha, a more popular name. I don't suppose there's any way to know how it happened!

I've got to say as well, even if I liked the sound of Seoirse and wanted to use that pronunciation, I wouldn't have a hope - the area in NI I live in now is more Irish than the rest of Ireland put together, and everyone I know is far too Nationalist to agree to call me a "proddy" version of a good, strong Irish name I was telling someone about this thread on Facebook and that's what they referred to your pronunciation as - no offence meant!

Agreed Maryz about the final pronunciation with the little lift but it is far too subtle to get away with over here - it just would not work. And if I was in the business of using that name it would really grate on my if people got it wrong.

Despite my version being wrong it is much much easier for UK speakers (and French speakers as we spend a good deal of time there too), the 'proddy' thing is funny too as we are Catholics....... but i get your meaning.

OP, it was years ago that I met this Sorcha - around 1990. She was English, and I met her through work; I hardly knew her but I just loved her name. About the same time I met an Irish chap whose name I stole for DS1. Thank heavens I married an Irishman!

I'm surprised by the Scottish pronunciation of 'ch'. How do Scots pronounce loch?

I asked my Scottish friends if they had ever heard the name Sor-cha/ Sorcha and they looked at me like this ... so I'm thinking it's not all that common in Scotland?

Pinky - you talk about the different pronunciations that are in Celtic baby books. To be honest, many baby books, published by (American? I'm guessing) authors mangle spelling/pronunciation to what they think it should be (Caitlin/Katelyn) so they're not necessarily a reliable guide.

I think part of the reason this thread is throwing up such angry feeling is the feeling that A BRIT is taking LIBERTIES with our language (whether we speak 2 words of it or not). I know I felt a condescending whiff of 'you and your silly little language with its extraordinary spellings' from her at times which has thrown my back RIGHT UP irked me at times, and it is a shame really, because the inspiration for the name is lovely - she met a lovely Irish lady, and wants to name her daughter after her.

So OP. tally forth and name your little girl whatever you like, but possibly take away from this thread the fact that with languages you aren't familiar with, or literate in, it isn't really polite to come across in a way that makes people think you are disrespecting their home language/2nd language (The NO I do want to avoid the spelt and said differently thing that happens with Gaelic names comment really annoyed me for example). It's not spelt and said differently. English rules do not apply. I really think if you had expressed yourself differently people would be focusing on the lovely inspiration for the name and be more forgiving less hung up on less than accurate pronounciations.

much love to BRITs by the way. Peace and love :) :)

///\ Agree...

It's difficult, if not impossible to explain this to Brits, whose culture and language has such a worldwide dominance. A lot - not all - just can't or won't 'get it' about why some nationalities take this so much to heart and are as protective as they are. When your language is the most widely spoken; is the international language of business, IT, music and entertainment, well, they're just words really, aren't they? Nothing to get so het up about.

I come from another small country which was brought under British rule in the 1840s - our population is the same size as Ireland's roughly and we also have a protected second language. My ancestors are British, so I'm not even one of the indigenous population, and yet I feel protective enough of the second language - I would say that most of us of European decent in my country actually do. So I can only imagine how the owners and speakers of the language itself must feel about it.

I also agree that what's getting people's back up is honestly how Pinky is coming across on this thread. :( She is basically playing up to the outdated stereotypes which many people who still carry a grudge against the English still hold in their minds - basically, dismissively arrogant. I'm sure she doesn't mean to come across like this and might even read back on this and not see how that has come across at all, but it really has. Why else has this thread gone quite so badly? 13 pages, FFS!!

OK, here's a roundup for you:

Sur-i-kha/Sur-uh-kha (the final sound is very soft and not like a throat clearing sound) is how to pronounce the name no matter what your baby name books say. (This has been pointed out from the start of the thread). As Squeegie pointed out, baby name books are not reliable. As a rule of thumb if a book has any Irish names in its K section, then it should be tossed. Another thing to look out for is whether names that rhyme with Aidan are placed in the Irish category. (Just two of the many ways you can spot a name book that has been generated by some printing house software in much the same way that they print joke books.)

There really isn't that much regional variation. You are mistaking the efforts of many posters here to try to get you to understand the sound of the name, using the English language to convey the sounds, for vast differences in Irish pronunciation. Such vastness doesn't exist. (So this "there are so many variations and even with the correct spelling and pronunciation in the country of origin - I wonder if all Irish names are like this? I don't know.. I wonder if that is because this is traditional or if it is a consequence of so much traditional language being disturbed for so many generations? Don't know but it is interesting. is baloney).

In Irish the letter O is pronounced like the English letter U unless it has a fada over it, which indicates the sound is to be lengthened.
So Sor = Sur, or if you like 'Sir', as in 'Please Sir, can I have some more..'
In between the R and the C there is a schwa sound.
The letter combination CH is pronounced Kh or as in Scottish 'loch', a soft sibilant sound.

Seoirse (boy's name, Irish version of George) is pronounced SHORSHA. The Es are slender and therefore sound like SH in English.

Saoirse (girl's name, means 'Freedom') is pronounced SEERSHA or SARE-SHA depending on whether your Gaeilge is from west/north or southwest respectively.

Squeegie, I think you are right -- the name is as rare as hens' teeth in Scotland. I also agree wrt the air of arrogance.

And you lot wonder why folk resort to "made-up" names and spellings...

See ds name is Riordan can't do accent but people seem to say reahden I want to go nooooo .As for spelling it for people I really thought it be easy for people to spell but it's not

Blimey, and here was me ignoring this thread because I couldn't see how the hell so much input was needed on how to pronounce a name.

I love it. "Lots of other people are ignorant so it's ok if I'm ignorant too." Great defence!

I think it is perfectly reasonable to not want a name that is spelt and said vastly differently. My older daughters name as an example: Orla - there are at least two other spellings of this which are much longer and much for confusing. Of course it isn't for a native speaker but I am not commenting as a native speaker am I, that was the whole point. That is why I chose the most simple phonetic spelling or Orla - completely reasonable and sensible given that I live in the UK.

I have never said anything like this - it is a practical choice and the fact that I was inspired by someone to use this name has been negated so I get a kicking - like I said practical choice. Which is I am sure why the Caitlins etc have come about.

My second daughters name is also a modern Irish version (some also say bastardised) of a much older name, longer and more visually complex name.

My son has Cuchulainn as a middle name. I love this name, it is pretty much phonetic too but I wouldn't have given it as a first name because although lovely it is long and would be intimidating for people who try to pronounce it.

And it is not being ignorant because other people are, I am genuinely interested in why there are so many children pronounced like I have suggested. There is a precedence, whether it is by accident or design and I would like to find out why. But given the fact that Caitlin/Conor etc are some of the most used 'Irish' names over here and it is not even real then I can see why everyone has a problem with it. Most people have no idea about this. All the (many) children at our school that use these names (and there are three Caitlins and two Conors that I know about) come from Catholic Irish families.... I wonder if their parents know they are wrong or perhaps are more relaxed about it because they live in the UK.

I am not being arrogant, I am talking about my own experience, if you choose to wilfully misinterpret that as some Imperialistic slight against the Irish and their language then so be it. That is not how I feel about it, I am trying to strike a balance between a lovely name that I like, I have no wish to offend anyone but I wonder if anyone who dares mention a Conor or Caitlin name gets called arrogant or a Colonial Thinker, I just wanted to know about other pronunciations and I was trying to put a logical argument that is all.

I have to say, I'm a little worried about what Sorsha will think when she's older if someone asks her about her sister's name. I greatly upset a little Keelan once by asking why her sister Cobhlaith's name was spelt the "right" way and hers wasn't. I wasn't very tactful when I was 10!

Also, the Scottish don't pronounce "ch" as "sh" either ... just caught that. In fact, I love getting Scottish customers on the phone as they can usually pronounce my name right! A lovely Catríona from the Highlands and I had a great laugh about our names and their schwas one day

I refer back to my last post to you many pages ago, that in your OP you said you knew "that for the most part this name is pronounced Sor-kha" you wanted to change the proununciation to suit you and "What do you think?"

Well - you got your answers, you didn't like what was said and yes in reply to your post to mine, no - you can ask for advice and you certainly don't have to take it - but you are getting answers from posters who are Irish speakers and have a lot of respect for their language to be so dismissive towards them, well, is a tiny bit ignorant.

Also I always thought that 'ch' in Scots Gaelic was pronounced ch as in 'church' not 'sha".