For considering terminating a a very early pregnancy with 3rd DC

[basilbrush]

I really would appreciate any advice you can offer as I am utterly torn about what to do.

I found out on Fri that I am pregnant, very early, 4 weeks. We have been using condoms so were very unlucky.

We have two wonderful DC, a girl and a boy, aged 3.5 and 6. I had two m/c in between them so am very aware that two lines on a stick don't automatically mean a baby in 9 months. But obviously still this is very big news.

My youngest will start school in September and I have been offered a wonderful opportunity starting at the same time - a 3 year PhD scholarship with no fees and a full bursary. As you can imagine, I was so proud to be offered it. However, if I went ahead with having the baby, I would have to turn it down. I have scoured over the contract and whilst I could postpone the start date by 1 year (no maternity allowance or anything), the scholarship cannot be done part time, only full time.

I don't want to get into a long argument with anyone about working full time with very young children. I know that plenty of mums do it, some through choice, some through necessity. But it's not something I would want to do unless I absolutely have to. And besides, my bursary would not cover a full time nursery place and money is very tight at the moment anyway. Even things like paying for school dinners for 3 would hurt.

I went to the GP the day I found out and said I wanted an early termination, where you take a pill and it induces a miscarriage. He said the hospital would contact me in about 2 weeks. I know they have this system to ensure you have really thought your decision through and as the hormones rack up each day, I am getting more confused and less sure about the best thing to do for me and my family.

I know whichever decision I make, I will always think "What if?" DH wants to wait and see if the pregnancy makes it, however he has always secretly wanted 3 DC! I get the feeling he thinks I am a bit shallow and selfish for prioritising a career opportunity over a potential human life. Which I suppose I am :-( However, I am genuinely also thinking about my other 2DC and the time, opportunities and yes, money, we would be able to offer them if we didn't extend our family.

winnybella It is not my opinion. It is a fact, I am afraid. At 2 weeks past conception it's an embryo. Have a google.

As I said before I am not going to argue about that. This isn't the place. I am surprised you think it is.

Hi OP
Sorry to hear you're in this position. As you can see, from many other posts on MN, you're not alone. But you're in a lonely place - as despite the 1 in 3 (women terminate a pregnancy during their life) statistic - it's not something people tend to share too widely.

I've walked in your shoes and feel for you.

As other posters have said, termination is not something arrived at without much very hard thought. If and when you make that decision, it is optimal to get there with the support of your partner. If you and your DP are unable to agree what to do, then perhaps some impartial counselling might help you both.

Luckily you've realised that you're pregnant early; I understand why every day that passes racks up the pressure on you, but make sure you both get a chance to say what you need to say. FWIW, my DP gave me the last word on our decision - which is ultimately what I think a woman needs, but ironically doesn't make it any easier.

But, in response to your question - are you being unreasonably to consider terminating an early pregnancy? IMHO, unequivocally not.

hmm. Atrs Phd funding...well...hen's teeth are found in greater abundance.

husband...welll..i kind of take the view that he should support you in your decision. Because it is your body, and your PHd at stake.

was he supportive of the Phd to begin with?

Yes, he is very supportive of the PhD. He thinks I should try and do both. His suggestion is that I postpone starting for a year and then do four 10 hour days a week from 8am-6pm. Three of those, the theoretical DC3 would be in nursery (not 10 hours, from 8.30 till 4pm and he would do the picking up and dropping off of DC3 and of the other two who would be at school) and the fourth day would be a Sunday and he would look after all the children while I work.

I don't think you ask for more than that really and I believe that he would help me out as much as he possibly could. It would still be a tough 3 years for all of us though!

It sounds like he really would do all he could to support you with the PhD and DC3, but as you say - a tough 3 years for all of you! At least you know you have the support of a loving husband and dedicated father. Now it's really just down to whether you think you could and/or want to juggle it all. Babies and toddlers being very hard work! Good luck with your decision :)

GlueSticks- it isn't the place for some of the things you have posted up thread rather than me stating a simple medical fact and I think quite a few posters think the same as I do.

OP, it's great that he offers to help and if indeed he would help as much as he says the whole thing could be workable- if quite tough! I guess that makes it even more difficult now for you to make a decision, eh?

winnybella I would just love you to point these terrible things I've said.

Ok, let's not. All of us. Okay? Let's not be pro anything here except for pro-OP and her family.

OP, I hope you're doing all right.

I don't think you would necessarily need to organise it quite like that OP if it seems overwhelming. You've probably already thought of this, but what about 3 eight hour days, then working 2 hours a night on weekdays, plus one morning of 4 hours at the weekend? Granted that only adds up to 38 hours, but you could also top that up when needed. You may also find that is enough time-I know I am much much more productive now that I have a dc.
I know it is more complicated than just sorting out timings but it might be helpful to speak to other phd students about how much they work.

I'm not particularly pro anything . . .

winnybella It is a fact, I am afraid. At 2 weeks past conception it's an embryo. Have a google. . . .

. . . but I feel that the name you apply to it is neither here nor there, left alone it has a good chance of becoming a fully fledged human being. Calling it an embryo doesn't take anything away from what it will become. To try to use the name that science applies to it as it is now to belittle the seriousness of the procedure of abortion isn't helpful. I believe that nothing I have said has been offensive or hurtful to the OP, but has instead tried to look at this from the perspective of the man, her husband and father of her other children, and the affect an abortion (of a wanted child for him) could have on their family and relatioship long term if the OP doesn't have his backing or agreement when or if she goes for the abortion. That doesn't mean that it shouldn't be ultimately her decision, but that she needs to be aware (and I'm sure she is) that his reaction may be very bad indeed to the point where they may never recover.

So much on here I see this discussed and glossed over, but seeing as they are in a long term comitted relationship it should not be, but hardly any of the early posts even mentioned him.

I said it was an embryo because you have been using an emotive term 'baby'-which it is not. I am not trying to belittle anything, but I don't believe it's helpful to come to this thread and start harping about the 'seriousness' of termination and how if you were the husband you wouldn't be able to look into your wife's eyes or love her if she had an abortion. I'm pretty sure OP is taking everything into account already. And termination does not need to be traumatic- I believe they did a huge study few years ago and found that a great majority of women were very relieved after having it and had no feelings of guilt afterwards.

And this is not a thread to have a discussion about our private views on termination, anyway. OP's facing a tough choice so let's not derail this thread by our bickering, ok?

Hope you're ok, OP.

Morning Basil. Hope you got some sleep, and that things are beginning to sort themselves out in your head.

winnybella I will NOT, ABSOLUTLEY NOT accept your view that it's not a baby! Please stop repeating that view when I have specifically asked you not to as I find it offensive. Your view, contrary to your beliefs is not necessarily the right one and shared by the rest of the world.

I would never terminate for your reasons But ony you and your OH can decide.
I wish you all the best

Ladies, ladies - it wasn't my intention to start a pro / anti abortion debate! I know it is an extremely emotive and controversial area. I myself have reservations about very late abortions when no-one can argue that you're dealing with a "Baby" but wrangling over what to call it at 5 weeks adds nothing to this discussion or helps me with this very painful decision.

Got no sleep for the 4th night running so not sure am at my most rationale (plus hormones etc!). But this morning I am leaning towards keeping the pregnancy, postponing my start date for a year if a baby arrives and then doing the PhD 3 / 4 intense days a week.

Just coming back tot his, I'm glad your DH is comin up with practical solutions. As with coccyx I would find a way to make it work too.

Oh dear, my typing is appalling, sorry.

x-posts OP. Have you thought any more about counselling?

Hi Basil.

I'm not sure I could have been as civil as you in your 11.54 post, I think I might have told Glue and Winny to go and boil their heads for hijacking!

I think I'd probably go that way too if it were me. I found myself expecting a few years ago, the baby would have arrived just after the youngest started school, and I was looking forward to going back to work. DP and I had same type of discussions as you and your DH have been having and eventually decided to keep the pregnancy. Sadly I miscarried at 8 weeks, but I still think about my never born last child on October 21st every year and am glad I did not in the end actively end his existence.

have you checked that delaying start is possible? can they 'earmark' funding for you?

if you are really extremely organised you could make your plan work, but i think many people would find it unrealistic. If you really want the pregnancy to continue, that doesn't really matter though...

Great that it's becoming clearer to you, basil Good luck with everything.

Yes, in response to Edless, I wouldn't underestimate how hard it is to do an arts PhD on that kind of schedule (I have one myself). I'd want to be very sure my DP understood that it was full time work (and more than full time work, in my experience), which is not always compatible with family life and can't necessarily be compressed easily. Nor can you do little bits here and there. On the other hand, if you are a full time student the university may have some schemes in place for help with nursery etc. (mine did, though I had no DC). I'd be very clear on how you think it will work in practical terms, and on the fact that you might have to rethink the logistics once the reality is upon you. Your DP will have to support you in that. If you try and just muddle through you could end up extremely stressed out.

Very good luck with your decision.

Without wanting to project my experiences onto yours, I think I should tell you my circumstances. I'm in the 3rd year of a (science) PhD pregnant with DC4. I started the PhD with 3 kids - and like you felt massively lucky to get funding and the support of my supervision team.

DS2 started at school this September. Up to then, I have been managing with the help of a CM ( booked for 3 days p.w. - and does school pick ups too) plus my Mum who takes them all out on Saturday. This gives me 4 clear days - plus bits and bobs round the side. DH earns a very good salary - which helps security of course. My stipend goes on childcare and my own expenses. Nonetheless, I find the other students a bit flash, with their Starbucks and bought sandwiches!

I think the challenges of the PhD have been intrinsic to the PhD, rather than being due to my circumstances. So main problems have been getting up to speed and up to confidence on technical skills. Also things like balancing high risk and low risk research avenues. I have to decide how much time to commit to 'what if' tentative avenues - and not get despondent if I have to close the book on several months of work without any substantive results to show for it. PhDs are psychologically hard - that is a given.

I've had weeks months which've felt like treading water - but a long-fuse endeavour like a PhD does allow you to a manage your own time. That is a plus and a minus. In the back of my mind I'm always thinking "I wonder if I can squeeze an hours work if DC decide to play quietly" - and I do hope I'm not 'wishing my children's childhood away' under the pressure. Nonetheless, aided by a super-flexible childminder, it does all hang together. On the flip side, I don't panic about winter bugs and INSET days the way I used to when I worked in an office.

I was very worried about announcing DC4 - felt as though I would be letting down my supervisors in some way. In actual fact, they literally haven't turned a hair. We've agreed a six month maternity suspension. My more experienced supervisor explained that he's had experience supervising depression, chronic illness, disinterest, broken-hearted alcoholism. From his pov a temporary suspension from a motivated candidate is small fry. Effectively it gives me a six month unfunded extension, and I'm viewing it as a sneaky way to spend longer on my PhD, and look super with extra publications etc!

Sorry this is so long winded - and maybe not relevant to you. Your circumstances are different - in that I had a stable family dynamic when I started. I understand how every baby is an upheaval, and 'rolling the dice' in terms of health and family dynamics.

Good luck, whichever way you decide. Hope it all works out for you.

Basilbrush - I think we "know" each other from a mc thread in 2007....
Obviously it's your decision, but I like the 'defer a year and then try to do both'
plan. I have combined FT work and children and while it's tricky, I found that the amount of energy I had was more than I would have had doing either one or the other. I think it's because you 'get a break' from either one. I also think it's important that you and DH are in agreement to some degree - otherwise it could be very hard...

I think it would be very rough for a few years but then you could look back and think "Wow...I am Superwoman." :)

Um...after this, is your DH open to "the snip", do you think?

Glimmer - yes we do! 2007 was a hell of year for me as I got pregnant 3 times. I never thought things would be so stressful again and here I am!

Cheerful Yank - ironically, DH had already been to GP about having the Snip and we were waiting for the letter to arrive with his consultant's appointment. AND we were using condoms. AND we only had one bonk last month. You couldn't make it up...