For considering terminating a a very early pregnancy with 3rd DC

[basilbrush]

I really would appreciate any advice you can offer as I am utterly torn about what to do.

I found out on Fri that I am pregnant, very early, 4 weeks. We have been using condoms so were very unlucky.

We have two wonderful DC, a girl and a boy, aged 3.5 and 6. I had two m/c in between them so am very aware that two lines on a stick don't automatically mean a baby in 9 months. But obviously still this is very big news.

My youngest will start school in September and I have been offered a wonderful opportunity starting at the same time - a 3 year PhD scholarship with no fees and a full bursary. As you can imagine, I was so proud to be offered it. However, if I went ahead with having the baby, I would have to turn it down. I have scoured over the contract and whilst I could postpone the start date by 1 year (no maternity allowance or anything), the scholarship cannot be done part time, only full time.

I don't want to get into a long argument with anyone about working full time with very young children. I know that plenty of mums do it, some through choice, some through necessity. But it's not something I would want to do unless I absolutely have to. And besides, my bursary would not cover a full time nursery place and money is very tight at the moment anyway. Even things like paying for school dinners for 3 would hurt.

I went to the GP the day I found out and said I wanted an early termination, where you take a pill and it induces a miscarriage. He said the hospital would contact me in about 2 weeks. I know they have this system to ensure you have really thought your decision through and as the hormones rack up each day, I am getting more confused and less sure about the best thing to do for me and my family.

I know whichever decision I make, I will always think "What if?" DH wants to wait and see if the pregnancy makes it, however he has always secretly wanted 3 DC! I get the feeling he thinks I am a bit shallow and selfish for prioritising a career opportunity over a potential human life. Which I suppose I am :-( However, I am genuinely also thinking about my other 2DC and the time, opportunities and yes, money, we would be able to offer them if we didn't extend our family.

agree with Hardgoing - check the rules out before you make your decision. I got maternity leave for dd1 during my PhD and she's now 13. I was sponsored by an external company as well as the research board council thing (sorry, it's a long time ago!). I then went back part-time to finish research after I had her.

Oh you poor thing. FWIW I dont think you are being unreasonable. I have two dcs, don't want any more and am just beginning to get back into my career. I would feel just the same as you. I hope you can be content with whichever decision you make x

I've just been in your situation. You have my total and utter sympathy - I would not wish this decision on my worst enemy. Here's my thread if it might help. I know I read everything I possibly could.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/1352819-Unplanned-pregnancy-termination-booked-anyone-with-similar-experience

Don't think it's the easy option though, as I did. I have to say although it's only early days, I am struggling a bit and have just organised a counselling session (I went through bpas). 85% of the time I'm fine, and then I'll just have a wobble. My DH has found it really difficult as well. I'm sure these reactions are all very normal at this stage but just beware - I didn't expect to feel quite like this. However, if I hadn't gone through with it, I know I'd be sitting here crying and stressed because I didn't think I'd be able to cope. I made what I felt was the best decision for my whole family.

I was less than 6 weeks when it was done and I was keen to make sure I didn't hang about too long deciding, although I had lost all pregnancy symptoms a couple of days after I found out (I've never had that in pregnancy) so in the back of my mind I wasn't sure the pregnancy was viable anyway. I was almost tempted to wait and see if the pregnancy would proceed naturally but I just couldn't. Physically (I took the abortion pill), it was fine - it felt more natural to me. I didn't have much pain at all, but the bleeding is kind of getting me down and I just want it to stop so I can go swimming with my children etc and try to get life back to 'normal'.

I wish you all the best and if you want to ask me anything at all then please pm me.

YANBU to seriously consider it, and your reasons are perfectly sound and valid. If you decide to terminate then do not allow yourself to feel you are being selfish or bad. Likewise if you decide to keep it, make sure it's because you want another child, not because you are fatalistically accepting that a pregnancy must be allowed to continue because not to do so is selfish. That is wrong.

Of course you are not being unreasonable. If there is one thing parenting has taught me it is that a child needs to be really wanted. Parenting is bloody hard and if there is any feeling of underlying resentment then it would be horrible. You have to be ready to give a child your all.

Your priority has to be those already living: you, your DCs, your DH. Make your decision for them. I feel for you that your husband is more keen on DC3, you need to feel supported in whatever decision you make. Can you sit down and talk him through all your concerns and fears? Maybe that will either change his mind OR he will be able to find solutions to some of the problems.

I guess the thing that rings alarm bells for me is that you say you are "utterly torn" over the decision. I think if you were sure that you want to do the Phd then an early termination would be the best thing but I worry about how you'll feel if you make the decision without being certain it's the one you want.

Look into whether you can defer the PhD for longer than a year or even reapply for it in 2-3 years time and see if they'll look on your application favourably.

Good luck whatever you decide. I know it will be pretty tough either way.

Yanbu. Really difficult position to be in, I really feel for you. I agree with those who've said don't worry about being 100% sure. If you were, you wouldn't describe yourself as 'torn' and you wouldn't be posting on here. But you probably have a gut feeling about what is right for you, and I'd say listen to that. Then be strong and go with it. Good luck.

agree about looking into other roads for obtaining abortion - that 2 weeks thing is bollocks (although GP referrals of any kind can take that long simply from paperwork, can be sped up by phonecall, possibly?) . Once you are sure - there is no need to make you wait.

three years funded PHD is very hard to obtain - well done you for getting it.

only you can know what is right, but if you don't want this pregnancy, then you don't have to continue.

OP, I can relate to your situation. I was in your shoes in the summer with unplanned no.4, 3 young children, a head full of emotion and very little sense. I felt very alone and remember 3 weeks of floating from decision to decision, being adament one minute as to my decision and then in tears and undecided the next.

The hardest aspect for me was trying to be normal with people when they were talking about the weather, dinner or just passing the time of day and being polite. I would look at them nod in the right place but have no memory of the conversations, all that was going through my head was I am pregnant why did this have to happen to me? I think I had just about decided that we would carry on with no.4 when I started to bleed and went on to have a miscarriage. I would be lying if I didn't feel like I had a lucky escape, no.4 would have sloted in and life would have gone on slightly differently than before however I am happier that we are a family of 5 not 6.

I am sorry you are in this position and my experience does not offer a solution however I just wanted you to know that someone else has been through that stormy sea.

My best wishes to you with your decision.

YANBU - you have probably put many personal aspirations on hold while you brought up your 2DC. At the risk of sounding corny, what does your heart tell you? You probably already know deep down what you want, but then other factors come into play like sense of obligation, guilt, your husband's feelings. Search your heart. Imagine how you would feel giving up the the PhD to raise another child. And then imagine how you would feel having a termination. The answer is already there. Good luck :)

I would think very hard about how your DH will feel if you terminate the pregnancy. I don't think he has been mentioned much on this thread but of course it is his baby too and he will also have to grieve. If he wants you to keep the baby then he may never forgive you for the abortion which could split up your family.

If I were you I would go ahead and have the baby and also do your PHD. I would find the money somewhere or even get into debt to pay for childcare. I don't feel that having some debt is anywhere as traumatic and life changing as ending your pregnancy, debt can be paid back after all and is unlikely to be something that you may regret for the rest of your life!

I don't feel that the other option would be something your DH would be happy with. It's not like you can have this baby in a few years time. Yes you can get pregnant again but you can never replace this baby.

I know these may not be a popular opinions but I feel that on MN (not necessarily this thread) people are often father flipant about abortion and the lasting affects on the mum, the dad and even the siblings if they were to find out one day. It can change everything.

I agree with Edless. Don't wait 2 weeks if you don't want to and are sure what you want to do. I found out Monday 21st, called bpas the next day, an initial appointment on Weds 22nd, then first pill 29th Nov and final batch on 30th. But it was so important for me to do it quickly. Mine was paid for by the NHS but I didn't go to my GP.

"If I were you I would go ahead and have the baby and also do your PHD."
Yes, but have you done a PhD GlueSticks? If so, you'll know what incred hard work it is (or at least, that was my experience).Having said that, I do have a friend who had a baby and did one, so it IS doable. And the OP is no doubt similarly talented (hence the full funding and etc). Also, there are often good univ creches.
OP - good luck in coming to your decision!

Glue, that's a really good point. I think we underestimate how much termination affects the partners as well.

OP - make sure you talk things through with your DH, and I mean REALLY talk things through. I have a suspicion with mine that he didn't really pour out all of his feelings to me although I thought we were being totally honest with each other. I worry that he was just supporting me and not wanting to say, "hang on, what if..." He has said a couple of things since which have really shaken me up and made me question what we've done and has also been a lot more upset than I ever imagined. Please don't underestimate your DH's role and feelings in the whole thing.

'I know these may not be a popular opinions but I feel that on MN (not necessarily this thread) people are often father flipant about abortion and the lasting affects on the mum, the dad and even the siblings if they were to find out one day. It can change everything.'

I don't think anyone is being flippant, it's just that most women who are sure about their decision are not plagued by guilt for the rest of their lives and neither are their marriages falling apart because of that. It actually can be a totally non-traumatic event, you know.

And while it would be great if OP's DH would be ok with the termination, in the end it's OP's body and future, so the decision belongs to her and her only.

I'm not sure what kind of PhD you have a place on but I would say that some PhDs (particularly Arts/Humanities) are actually pretty low levels of work much of the time compared to a FT job, and are certainly much more flexible. If it is science and you have to be in a lab 9-5 or longer then obviously not. But I wouldn't think the first year or so of an arts/humanities PhD would be impossible with a baby, provided you are not too hard on yourself and have good support from DH and other family/childcare providers. Also if you deferred for one year would the baby be over one when you started? This doesn't seem too bad to me, but obviously it is up to you.
Also second what someone else said about making sure there is no possibility of going PT at some point, and also about maternity leave. Sometimes there is no formal provision but something can be worked out informally, ie flexible working or low levels of work for a term or so.
Don't feel I can advise you either way, but felt I needed to say the above as it is important you have all the information before making a decision. Wishing you all the best.

The first year of an Arts/Humanities PhD is NOT 'a low level of work' - not if you want to complete within 4 years, anyway, which is what your funder will require, and what (realistically) you'll need to aim for in the interests of your career. But it IS flexible work - if you were disciplined, you could probably mostly manage by putting the baby into child care while the kids are in school (which, realistically, is part-time, not full-time - about 30 hours a week), and then working again after they've gone to bed. My sister did that - her son was born just before she started her PhD. But she only has the one.

If you deferred for a year, your baby would be a year old, and hopefully sleeping all night, no longer on the breast etc, so using a nursery/creche would be do-able. Have you found out what facilities are available at the institute where you would be studying, and how much they would cost?

Well just to clarify I said low level of work compared to a FT job. Maybe you could speak to some people (especially Mums if poss) informally who have actually done the PhD you are thinking of doing? No doubt there is a wide variation between institutions/courses. In the 3rd/4th year it certainly becomes much more intense. Also some PhD funding programs require you to teach in addition which would obviously add to your workload.

winnybella And while it would be great if OP's DH would be ok with the termination, in the end it's OP's body and future, so the decision belongs to her and her only.

It's the DH's future too.

Yes but it will affect her husband forever. If he doesn't agree with the decision then he may never forgive the OP. He may not want to be with her anymore. These are no small things. It could affect everything forever. If I were a man and my DW aborted my baby when I really didn't want her to I doubt I could even look her in the face again let alone continue to love her and share a home with her.

Sorry but while one can sympathise with the man's feelings, it's still the woman's decision. It's her body and her life. If you were a man, GlueSticks, would you really feel that you were entitled to pressure your DW into continuing a pregnancy she didn't want, just to spare your feelings?

if you want to be successful in your PHD, you treat it as a full time job. she would only get 3 years funded, and the average PHd takes 5 years...

I think it is very hard for Arts students to motivate themselves through it as there tends to be less of a study-support culture for them. Science PHD students get to share lab space and talk through their work whilst their experiments play out. They have a set workplace. When they write up they will have results and methodology - there is a basic plan to follow.

Producing a 100000 word Theses on, say, Hegel, will 1) involve library time, sat alone, reading. 2) involve desk time, sat alone, writing. and maybe 1 hr a week of 3) discussion time. the problem being you may be the only person doing a PHD on Hegel, so there is no-one else that in-depth to discuss it with other than your tutor. I have known artists get so distracted by part-time jobs, and the seemingly endless nature of writing up, that they dropped out. It is important to focus, treat it like a job, be dedicated. This is what the most successful students of both sorts do.

'If I were a man and my DW aborted my baby when I really didn't want her to I doubt I could even look her in the face again let alone continue to love her and share a home with her.'

Well, let's hope OP's DH can deal with it better than you would should she decide to terminate. But whatever his feelings are on the subject, they cannot carry as much weight as her feelings on the pregnancy that she will have to carry for 9 months and give birth to, not mentioning trying to do a PhD with a baby etc.

Oh, and it's not a baby yet at 4 weeks post LMP.

OP, I hope that you will come to the best decision for you.