to not want my kids to be fingerprinted?

[BAFE]

Next year the secondary school are bringing in a fingerprint systems for school lunches and the school library.

I feel really uneasy about this. Can I refuse?

It's used in more and more situations, not just schools . Plenty of companies are starting to use this for employees clocking in and out.

My son will be starting secondary school in Sept where they use this and i'mcompletely okwith it as I know that his actual fingerprint can't be recreated.

And even if it could, if he was to commit a crime in the future, I would want him caught!

Are those of you still going on about the 'fingerprint' not understanding what the others are saying or do you just not believe them?

I do think tho' that we need people to challenge and not just go along with everything the government tries to do, so good on you from that front ( but in this case if you understand how it actually works, surely you can see that it's safe and massively beneficial?

It is such a simple system I don't see a problem with it.

I think that is what it boils down to....the trust in the system, the technology and the authority behind it. If you are naturally suspicious, you will never accept it.

It wouldn't bother me.

But then I quite happily give my fingerprints whenever I visit the US too. They don;t, as yet anyway, fingerprint children - but iI don't think it'd bother me regardless.

YANBU. He hasn't commited a crime. He hasn't been arrested. He shouldn't be fingerprinted. End of.

so:

Firstly, we have to beleive that the algorythm is a true one-way translation. There aren't all that many truely one-way algorythms that exist. GCHQ can probably recreate a fingerprint - or similar enough fingerprint that will generate the same encrypted value given the data if they want to.

Second, supposing it was a true one way algorythm and a heinous crime was commited by a member of a school for which a fingerprint for the perpetrator was found. It would definately be theoretically possible to use the print and the one-way algorythm to generate the coded data using the one-way algorythm and compare that to the database thus producing a suspect (or range of suspects). Given this scenario is it so far fetched to believe the police wouldn't want to try it?

Thirdly, so what if it's not the actual fingerprint that's stored - the police fingerprint system doesn't store the actual prints either but a differently coded representation of them - that's how fingerprints are stored and compared. It's quite likely theoretically possible to create a system that can compare differently encoded fingerprints.

Data security is a bit of an issue here because most people probably don't trust a school to safeguard data as well as say a bank does. Most schools don't have especially technically savvie people in charge of IT, so the data is potentially at risk. It may not be of use to criminals now, but who is to say what other systems might use related technology in the future (by related, I mean that criminals would be able to exploit loopholes in the encryption and translate between different algorythms - this really isn't all that farfetched). If your bank account details are stolen then you can create a new bank account - if your fingerprint details are stolen you can't grow a new finger. If other systems begin to use biometric data that either uses the same encryption or criminals manage to translate between the two (and they WILL try to do this) then your details might be compromised.

All that said, the risk is low - I have allowed my child to use a fingerprint id system at school and not lost sleep over it.

Yeah and if your granny had balls, she'd be your grandpa

if you understand how it actually works, surely you can see that it's safe and massively beneficial?

I do understand and I know that the fingerprint cannot be reconstructed. I am concerned that the more children get used to handing over data because "someone official" asks for it, the less safe society as a whole becomes.

For example, we now have chips in our passports. Are they "safe"? The govt told us that they would only be readable at short range. This is not true - tests have been done and passports can be "swiped" remotely, as you pass a reader in a briefcase at Heathrow. If someone can hack into the Passport Agency database (look at the government's record on data security), what can they do with your passport information? And if your biometric information is there?

I'm not bothered about being framed but about identity fraud - think Minority Report. Your five-year-old's biometric data is valuable - if not now, then in 15 years. Why would you want it given away for trivial purposes? Why would you want to accustom a child to the idea that government should have access to all our information? Why not just microchip children, like we do dogs?

SDeuchars speaks the truth.

Actually I really wouldn't worry too much about anyone being able to use the system to read a fingerprint taken from the scene of a crime - we use the Junior Librarian system at school and the damn thing has enough trouble reading a legitimate fingerprint if the finger is dirty/sweaty/not placed on the reader in exactly the right way - I doubt it would recognise a reproduction at all..... It has never given a false ID though, it just keeps saying 'try again' until we give up & use the barcode.

When we set up the system we asked the parents' permission, even though we are currently not required to (the new government have plans to change this) We have about 220 children but are now only registering the Year 3-5 as the Year 6 are so close to leaving. Out of around 150 children, only 6 have refused and we just use a barcode for those children. Most of them haven't given a reason & we haven't asked -one parent said they didn't want to encourage the idea that biometric data should be used for trivial purposes.

The only difference to the child will be that a barcode would always have to be read by a member of staff so that we could be sure that it was the right one (this helps when dealing with parents who claim their child never borrowed a book!) but we don't currently have plans to let the children issue their books on their own anyway, so it doesn't matter.

As YummyMam said they don't store the finger prints.

Rather the information is read and converted into a Hash (look up MD5 hash on wikipedia) and stored in the database.

This is a number that looks like this 6a065b080ef4c8d1266fb3eab76d0b91

When the kid approaches again the fingerprint is converted into another number. If the numbers match then they are allowed to eat

The same happens with 90% of passwords you use for websites as it won't reveal the password to the owners. Ever wondered why websites have to set you a new password rather than e-mailing you your old one when you forget?

OK, so I can believe the hash used is currently one-way. Will it still be one-way & immune from brute-force attacks in the lifetime of a child (80 years or so)? Given historical increases in computing power and mathematical advances it's a brave person who will say yes to that. You used the password analogy - lots of commonly used password algorithms haven't stood the test of much shorter timespans (lanman for example).

And any fingerprint found at a crime scene could still be hashed and compared to the contents of any datatabase. Just because it's not the same hash as used by the police does not preclude this.

@RustyBear: Do you need permission to tattoo a barcode on the children?

Anyone here been on holiday to the States ? What happens when you go through Passport Control, you get your photo taken and you are finger printed. And that's not just the adults. Of course you could object, but you would be on the next plane home and not get to meet Mickey Mouse.

At DSs primary school summer fair, we always had the emergency services come along to talk to the kids. The Police stand had reproduced a finger print form (School name Constabulary) and were offering to finger print the kids using the old fashioned ink method. The kids got to take the printed form home with them as a souvenir rather than the finger prints end up on the Police database. This was always the stand with the longest queue. The kids thought it was great fun !

YANBU OP, the collection of biometric data makes me uneasy too because once it's given there's no taking it back (although take the point about not being able to re-construct the print from the data).

I don't really understand the system enough to make me comfortable about handing something over irreversibly. Without indepth knowledge of the system, I am unconvinced that this data COULD NOT be used for something in the future if not now. I'm not interested in anyone assuring me it 'would not' be - bollocks, if it could be it would be.

Of course you could object, but you would be on the next
plane home and not get to meet Mickey Mouse.

That is not really relevant - if you are not prepared to have that happen, you do not book to go to the US (or not by plane).

The Police stand had reproduced a finger print form (School name Constabulary) ...
The kids thought it was great fun !

Surely the important point here is:

The kids got to take the printed form home with them as a souvenir

In other words, they knew what happened to it. As soon as it is on computer, out of sight, you have no control over what happens.

I agree with whiteflame. The previous govt told us lots of things would not be used badly ("trust me, I'm a politician"). Do you think that we all signed up for ISA (now cancelled, I realise) when we initially thought CRBs sounded like a good idea? Are CRBs wholly benign? No, there is a large number of false positives - people whose life is ruined.

It used to be that justice in this country meant stopping innocent people being wrongly convicted and that that was more important than locking up bad people (source: Helena Kennedy, Just Law). To turn that on its head is not a good thing - the larger the heap, the more false positives and the more innocent people wronged. It is not good enough to say "if it saves one life" - one person not harmed (whether child or adult) is not worth the price of hundreds of people's lives ruined and everyone giving up their right to a private life.

Oh fgs, get a grip. YABU.

The school I work at has the fingerprint system - I only wish the school my son goes to had it too. Would save me a bloody trip to the bank every month to draw £40 worth of coins out for his lunch money.

Sorry, pressed post before I should have - if my sons school had it, then I could load money on to his thumb from home online using parent pay.

I think it is a horrible and probably rather inaccurate system, which will have cost loads and does imo almost criminalise children before they have done anything.

It't a security system but unlike having a 'pass' or a card to identify yourself it's based on something deeply intrinsic and physiological.

To me that sounds intrusive - a bit 'we've got you bastards now, you'll never get away with anything! Not nicking a book from the library, not eating someone else's allocated school dinner or , stealing a pudding. You little sods are shafted, mwa ha ha ha'

I don't like it but then I hate a lot of things about schools. I suppose my point is that a) it has associations with the criminal justice system, b) it involves using part of your child's body to identify them, rather than a neutral object they can choose to carry or not, and c) the fact it cannot be got around - the fact ID cards and such can be swapped about and cheated with allows some fundamental margin of error to be implicit while fingerprints take that away thus taking on a symbolism of I don't know what - but it makes me uncomfortable.

I will be able to see what they are eating at lunchttime- my dd uaually takes a packed lunch, but I am more interested in what my ds will be choosing in Sept.

Given that any computer system within the public sector is routinely derided (and not without good reason), I would never be confident enough to be sure that all the personal details associated with any fingerprint would be securely stored.

I am also a person who believes we are all too trusting in simply handing over our biometric details.

While to some people it may be an innocent way of ensuring books/meals go to the right person, the children themselves will get into the mindset of handing over their details to anyone asking who looks even vaguely official, whether or not that person actually has any right to ask.

The information I have at the moment is that the majority of those who suffer ID fraud are younger people. The very people who are MOST techno-savvy, who are the ones USED to handing their details around.

Older people like me tend to be more guarded with our information. If someone asks for something, my first response is always "WHY?"

For example, most banks ask for far more information about you than the money laundering laws require, and actually that extra information goes towards marketing products at you.

So, my dcs will not be getting permission to use a thumb print.

Cjib - in the us they don't photograph and fingerprint children. They also didn't put dd through the body scanner either.

YABU. And I'm also very at your argument that you don't want anybody to have your children's fingerprints in case they commit crimes.

YANBU I would completely ape anyone tried to take biometric data from my child or myself.
I am with SDeuchars on this it's softening up the younger generation to this this invasion of privacy is acceptable. Horrid! I am surprised any school would use state control techniques like this. Things are worse than I thought.

I don't really think you can describe a fingerprint library system as "state control techniques".