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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to not pay my cleaner holiday pay?

72 replies

BoffinMum · 06/07/2010 15:15

Please do not chortle at the middle class nature of this thread, as I am a bit upset, but I would genuinely like some MN views, so don't be too rough with me.

I have a full time job and a long commute. My cleaner is lovely, but a bit ineffectual, so I have to do a fair bit of top up housework and spring cleaning type stuff myself each week (not easy because I have a disability). I pay her £10 an hour for six hours a week to clean a bedroom, a bathroom, hall stairs and landing, a living room, a downstairs loo and quickly hoover a study and dining room, plus included within that she does about 2 hours worth of ironing. We are quite tidy as a household.

She has been with me for three years and during that time her productivity has declined (see previous posts). I have spoken to her twice about it. Until now I have also been letting her weekly standing order run on if she is away, as a kind of bonus. However three weeks ago she announced she was off for a long haul holiday for a fortnight, and mentioned to someone else in the house that she would be back in three weeks (not two as she told me). So for the past little while I have been doing all the housework and ironing while she has been away. During this time we also did our accounts and realised this was costing us £3k+ a year and we couldn't not really afford it in the present climate, especially if it wasn't always being done very well.

I stopped the standing order, as I felt she was not my employee and she was charging a fairly ample freelance rate, and I rang her upon her return to explain what was going on and that I had to let her go for financial reasons. We had a bit of a roundabout conversation but left it that I would give her two weeks' notice and she would come today.

She came and was very unhappy and then flounced, not coming back, because she reckoned she was entitled to two weeks' paid holiday a year (I have a feeling she's already had more than that, actually, but I never kept records because to me it was a bonus situation) and we had let her down.
I explained my point of view, namely that she was charging full whack as a freelancer and then asking for holiday pay on top of that, which in some ways was a bit steep. Neither side saw the other's point of view.

She is now really upset and so am I. I have been made to feel bad despite the fact that I feel I have been pretty tolerant and generous over the years, and ever so slightly taken advantage of at times (for example sometimes she gets her daughter to come in to clean for her, and even less is done then). She feels she has been loyal and had it thrown back in her face.

Views please (but be a bit gentle).

OP posts:
kreecherlivesupstairs · 06/07/2010 15:18

YANBU, she is a chancer. I doubt that she only has you as clients so don't worry about her starving. I am astonished at 10 pounds an hour though. Blimey.

wingandprayer · 06/07/2010 15:20

Oh dear. You are well shot of her. Wave her goodbye, tell her to shove her request for holiday pay and if she doesn't like it then perhaps you should both have a discussion with the tax man about exactly what basis she has been employed on for the few years.

Do not feel bad at all. Deep breathe, focus on what you can do with that extra £3k.

scurryfunge · 06/07/2010 15:20

If there is no contract then neither of you have any obligations. Don't feel too bad, sounds like she was taking the pee

FranSanDisco · 06/07/2010 15:21

Is she paying tax on her earnings? Bet she isn't. You owe her nothing. She is self employed.

gingernutlover · 06/07/2010 15:21

YWBU to suddenly stop her money and to change the goalposts re holidays.

But, has any of this ever been written down in a formal contract?

Did you ever agree with her what to do about holidays? My take on it is that fi you are self employed, you dont charghe when you arent available unless you have specifically agrred to it.

LadyBiscuit · 06/07/2010 15:22

I pay my cleaner when I go away but not when she goes away.

I don't blame you. And actually if she isn't doing a very good job and she knows you have a disability, she doesn't sound like she deserves your very generously paid job.

oiteach · 06/07/2010 15:23

You cannot owe her holiday pay unless she is your employee surely? IE, do you pay her tax and NI?

I would have thought she is self employed (or more likely cash in hand) in which case you don't owe her holiday pay.

muggglewump · 06/07/2010 15:23

£10 an hour? I need to give up my cleaning job and start advertising to clean the toffs other houses where I live.

I clean up poo and wee for just over minimum wage.

muddleduck · 06/07/2010 15:24

Tricky one, but on balance I think YABU.

I can see your point that she didn't 'deserve' this holiday money, but on the other hand if she had been given it in the past then I think it is reasonably for her to expect to receive it in the future. If you weren't happy with her work you should have given her final notice or some kind of notice to improve, not just change her 'conditions' without notice.

Next time - agree this stuff in advance

(BTW from my memory I think we live in a similar part of the country in which case £10 per hour is low)

Butterbur · 06/07/2010 15:24

It sounds like she is self employed - the fact that she sometimes sends her daughter instead of herself is key here.

As a self-employed business person she has no statutory entitlement to holiday pay. However, if you have historically paid her holiday pay, she might be able to argue that you have contracted to pay her for holidays.

As she almost certainly hasn't declared her earnings to the taxman, I'd have thought she would be unlikely to take it further.

(Am an accountant, not a lawyer)

ChippingIn · 06/07/2010 15:26

Oh darhling... if it's not the nanny, it's the cleaner - you just cannot get good help these days....

Boff - honestly, you do have the worst luck with nannies/the cleaner!

She's taking the piss mickey - don't give it another thought. She's not there to be loyal, she's there to clean and she only does a half-arse job of that! Her 'loyalty' is nothing more than knowing she's onto a good thing!! 4 hours to do that cleaning (2 hours ironing) - she should be doing a brilliant job. Of course she's had it good, you've been paying her when she isn't there - cheeky bloody moo!!

Mingg · 06/07/2010 15:29

Contract does not need to be written to be binding and if you have carried on paying her while she has been on holiday(s) over the last 3 years I can see how she would be entitled to holiday pay.

StealthPolarBear · 06/07/2010 15:29

but muddleduck, if she gets paid holidays as and when what's to stop her taking 26 weeks holiday>

Morloth · 06/07/2010 15:31

hmmm a bit of both really.

I pay per clean but as you had an "arrangement" with her it was a bit unfair to stop it before you spoke to her.

I would have waited for her to come back, and let her know then that you would be letting her go in 2 weeks.

Jane054848 · 06/07/2010 15:32

I am an employment lawyer and she's definitely not entitled to holiday pay as she is self employed. Also, I don't think there's any part of the country where £10 is low as an hourly rate for a cleaner if you are paying direct, not through an agency. You have no legal obligations, and no moral obligations either IMO - she sounds like she's been taking the piss.

MrsGangly · 06/07/2010 15:32

I think you have been very reasonable. Holiday pay would have been a bonus but can not have been reasonably expected as she was self-employed. You discussed her work on several occasions. There was no contract on either part yet you have given her two weeks notice. You have been very fair.

diggingintheribs · 06/07/2010 15:34

Are you me!!! Currently about to move house and using this to get rid of cleaner who has peen taking the p* recently. Too scared to actually sack her! I didn't even challenge her when she asked for a pay rise despite her not doing a proper job!!! Middle class guilt is such a pain!!

I never pay for holidays - she is self employed and not entitled. I always give her a generous Christmas bonus though so over the year she basically gets 52 weeks pay.

You've had a lucky escape and this gives you the chance to get someone else. Nothing more annoying than having to clean up after your cleaner has been!!!

muddleduck · 06/07/2010 15:34

If you are looking for a new cleaner (and I am right about where you live) then IME this small company is pretty good.

cleaners

SPB - that would not count as 'existing conditions' in my book

Druzhok · 06/07/2010 15:34

I pay 2 cleaners £30 pw (total) to do about 1.5-2 hours work, in which time they manage to do more than yours does. Same rate of pay, though.

I don't pay them if they go away (whcih they do, a fair bit: Judith Chalmers has nothing on them), but have never cancelled on them myself. They're pretty flexible, though.

I think you are very fair.

muggglewump: it is a good business to get into, seriously. If you are trustworthy and prepared to be consistent, you will much sought after.

BoffinMum · 06/07/2010 15:34

Thanks for this.

Update: I have just transferred her two weeks' holiday pay as I think there's a valid point about precendents and expectations here. But I am still interested in the balance of views about whether I have been a mug.

ChippingIn, I do take your point. Taking a step back from it all I remind myself that world starvation and world peace are slightly higher priorities for concern, but like a lot of mums when problems are close to my home and hearth I go get quite acutely worried and upset.

OP posts:
muddleduck · 06/07/2010 15:36

(the cleaners I've linked to don't have any contracts and you can cancel with no notice)

Druzhok · 06/07/2010 15:40

boffin: I wouldn't call you a mug. I think you have thrown a bit of cash at a difficult situation so that you feel you've done the right thing. You have gone above and beyond.

Do not transfer anymore money, however

emy72 · 06/07/2010 15:41

I have a cleaner and I pay £10 per hour too.

I don't pay her holiday pay as she is self employed and so I never thought this was necessary. She is happy with that - where we are it is absolute top notch pay so I don't feel I am exploiting her either.

I think you can find a much better cleaner for that rate....please don't be upset, I think she was slightly taking advantage xx

Missus84 · 06/07/2010 15:42

She's self employed so you don't owe her holiday pay, but as you had been paying it I think you probably did the right thing to pay it this time.

I guess the lesson is not to establish precedents you may not be able to continue, and at least get a verbal agreement if not a written one.

mummytime · 06/07/2010 15:44

I would take advice. Our cleaner was self-employed, but we were warned she was entitled to one weeks holiday for every 13 weeks of employment. She was quite happy to take the holiday when we asked her to, but I'm not sure she couldn't have requested holiday at her own convenience. It is to do with IR35 I think.

But if she wasn't paying her own tax and NI then she will find it hard to prove.