to not pay my cleaner holiday pay?

[BoffinMum]

Please do not chortle at the middle class nature of this thread, as I am a bit upset, but I would genuinely like some MN views, so don't be too rough with me.

I have a full time job and a long commute. My cleaner is lovely, but a bit ineffectual, so I have to do a fair bit of top up housework and spring cleaning type stuff myself each week (not easy because I have a disability). I pay her £10 an hour for six hours a week to clean a bedroom, a bathroom, hall stairs and landing, a living room, a downstairs loo and quickly hoover a study and dining room, plus included within that she does about 2 hours worth of ironing. We are quite tidy as a household.

She has been with me for three years and during that time her productivity has declined (see previous posts). I have spoken to her twice about it. Until now I have also been letting her weekly standing order run on if she is away, as a kind of bonus. However three weeks ago she announced she was off for a long haul holiday for a fortnight, and mentioned to someone else in the house that she would be back in three weeks (not two as she told me). So for the past little while I have been doing all the housework and ironing while she has been away. During this time we also did our accounts and realised this was costing us £3k+ a year and we couldn't not really afford it in the present climate, especially if it wasn't always being done very well.

I stopped the standing order, as I felt she was not my employee and she was charging a fairly ample freelance rate, and I rang her upon her return to explain what was going on and that I had to let her go for financial reasons. We had a bit of a roundabout conversation but left it that I would give her two weeks' notice and she would come today.

She came and was very unhappy and then flounced, not coming back, because she reckoned she was entitled to two weeks' paid holiday a year (I have a feeling she's already had more than that, actually, but I never kept records because to me it was a bonus situation) and we had let her down.
I explained my point of view, namely that she was charging full whack as a freelancer and then asking for holiday pay on top of that, which in some ways was a bit steep. Neither side saw the other's point of view.

She is now really upset and so am I. I have been made to feel bad despite the fact that I feel I have been pretty tolerant and generous over the years, and ever so slightly taken advantage of at times (for example sometimes she gets her daughter to come in to clean for her, and even less is done then). She feels she has been loyal and had it thrown back in her face.

Views please (but be a bit gentle).

Have phoned recommended company, and realised that I can get it done a bit cheaper with emotional issues removed from the frame, so a bit relieved on that front. Plus they bring all their own stuff, etc.

hope it works out

If they are sending in other people to clean for them, it's hard to know who exactly you 'owe' the holiday pay to, isn't it?

Mummytime, I think you were advised incorrectly there. You have no obligation to pay someone self-employed holiday pay. As she was self-employed your cleaner could take holiday whenever it took her fancy, bearing in mind that if she inconvenienced you too much she might have lost a customer.
I'm a self-employed cleaner and my customers certainly don't tell me when I can and cannot go on holiday.

Glad it's sorted some Boff. Do know that self employed means you're not 'owed' holiday (DH is self employed and we have to plan ahead to get 'paid' during it by cutting our pay during non-holiday times)

I think YANBU as she wasn't doing a good job, and does sound as if she took advantage of your good nature.

I don't live in the UK, but I do pay our cleaner for public holidays, if she's ill, and for when she goes away (she doesn't go often). Also pay her double for the week before Christmas as a bonus.

But she's LOVELY, she adores DS, and she always works a bit of extra time. I know she works really really hard for lots of people and that it's pretty crap working lots of part time menial jobs and not being entitled to holiday or sick days.

I suppose I feel like I am lucky enough to be able to afford it, and that I should do the right thing by people who work hard doing jobs for me that I don't want to do myself.

I am self employed, and do a couple of cleaning jobs.
I do not get paid for holidays I take, I don't get paid for holidays my bosses take.
I wouldn't dare not do a good job, as I can't do without the money I earn.

YANBU - if she's as crap as you say she is, you are better off without her. Next cleaner, make sure you and she/he know the score re. time off/payments etc.

Oh, and by the way, I declare everything I do, and pay NI. Don't assume that all cleaners are dishonest!

I remember you posting about her declining standards before

If you're SE then you don't get holiday pay - you don't work, you don't get paid. She was definitely SE so no holiday pay.

Hopefully you'll have no more staffing issues now!

I pay mine £9 an hour, and we have an arrangement that if she goes away she gets nothing but can make up the hours when she comes back, either through cleaning or babysitting and if I go away she comes as normal, although she tries to shift things round so she comes less when I'm away and an extra time after I get back to help me with all the holiday laundry and ironing.

Is she an employee or self employed - I'd guess self employed so you do not need to pay her holiday pay.

You need to be very clear about what the employment
situation is. If she's freelance then you don't owe her hol pay notice etc. She is responsible for her tax etc. If she's an employee you do and you will be responsible for tax etc.

Goodwill counts for absolutely nothing. You have to be sure you follow correct procedure depending on whether she us freelance or in your employment.

I am a cleaner although not in a private domestic setting, to be honest you are being a bit wishy washy about the whole thing, if you have a cleaner who is not doing their job, write down any issues, agree how to move forward etc, treat the cleaner like an employee I would take small bets that the vast majority of people who employ cleaners do the most ridiculous things like "have a quick tidy up" before they arrive etc. It is a bit mean not to pay cleaners if you are away but you don't need to pay her holidays. A good home cleaner is a god-send and I would be a bit wary about using cheaper cleaning companies, staff can change, no continuity of work, standards etc. Also don't make assumptions about people paying tax etc, does she pay tax, NI if she earns under a certain amount a week? - I don't!

I pay my cleaner 52 weeks a year.

I get holiday pay and sick pay and my cleaner gets the same. I'm not saying it doesn't hurt but how can I justify my holiday and sick pay and then think it is ok for someone who earns far less than me to go without?

They are good though - if they were rubbish I wouldn't keep them on.

What you have to remember is this woman works for you. You are paying her to do a job for you. To pay her £10 per hour you would have had to earn £10 plus the tax that has been deducted from your salary, so it costs you more than £10 per hour for her to flounce around not doing her job properly. Is she paying tax? If not she is grossing £10 per hour so for her it's like earning £10 plus tax and NI. I would absolutely not have given her any more money especially in view of the fact you have let her go anyway. And if her work isn't up to standard why is she getting a bonus ? Next time advertise you want a cleaner get the offer straight at the outset. £6.50 per hour wouldn't be unreasonable, no holiday pay, but it's goodwill to pay when you go away - that's the bonus she's then got payed free time.

i have a totally lovely cleaner. she does more than that in four hours a week, on less pay. its always been cash in hand. sometimes a check, but she prefers cash. we only ever pay for the hours she actually does. occasionally her standards slip, and i have to ask her to do some stuff, but she is clever girl, ( i am much much older than her, and to me she is a girl, so not being patronising) and she does the job properly again.
i occasionally buy her presents, such as christmas or birthday. but not always. would never dream of giving her holiday pay, and she wouldnt ask.
this woman is taking you for a ride.

I have an incredibly wealthy friend, who is totally right wing, very outspoken,lovely but a total waste of space one of those glamourous alcoholics. I know what she would say to this....."Dahlink...she's staff, she wasn't doing her job properly and you were more than generous. Sack her and be done with it"

You are soooo NBU it is untrue!

Cancel that hols pay transfer now if not too late. It is not the norm to pay freelance cleaners holiday pay and she should have been jolly appreciative that you were.

Please don't give this awful women another thought. You can get a much better cleaner far cheaper (in terms of time).

I pay my gorgeous cleaner £12 an hour (average to high for here) but she only takes an hour and a half to do the following...

A full clean (dust, mop, hoover, clean, limescale or whatever) on:
Kitchen
Utility room
Sitting room
Bathroom/walk in shower

And then hoover three bedrooms, the snug and two flights of stairs.

She also feeds our cat free of charge whenever we go away (a lot).

We don't pay her hols pay and she's happy if we cancel her on our hols, often I'll ask her to come in and do something different (like clean the windows or dust the fireplaces) more because I don't want her to do without the money when she's so lovely and is coming in to feed the cat!

She totally refuses to take any payment over and above her actual cleaning times whether it be gifts, cash, flowers or whatever.

Save some of that 3k, get yourself a nice cleaner and do not think about it anymore!!

Oh and my cleaner "is a Christian therefore pays tax on her earnings" (direct quote!)

Erm, I was of the understanding that the law on part-time and freelance employees was amended a few years ago so that actually they are entitled to holiday pay and sick pay.

But the real issue here is that she hasn't been doing her job, so you should have let her go ages ago and paid her nothing!

There's a difference between being part time and being self employed. A part time employee is entitled to the same benefits a full time employee is, but if you are self employed you set your own terms and conditions as you have clients/customers rather than an employer.

Thanks for continuing support. I am actually wavering and feeling really sick and guilty and upset about the whole thing, but hanging onto the fact that this is a bit unnecessary and I need to be less sensitive (something I find hard in a domestic context). It does not help that I was accosted and this all took place in front of our nanny, and part of me was saying to myself "For god's sake, go into another room and do this elsewhere" while the other part was saying "It may be terrible management practice but I want a blardy witness to this nonsense".

She was loyal in the sense that she would always move her schedule round if she could, and babysat for us a couple of times, but so was I in that I moved our schedule around sometimes as well, and paid her sick pay and bought her a really good Xmas present every year, plus I paid her if we were away or if the DS's were ill and quarantined, etc.

WRT to how I managed her, she was provided with a list of what needed cleaning in each room, the frequency of cleaning required, and I demonstrated how it needed to be done (eg wiping pedestals and WC basins around the outside, dusting tops of cupboards, hoovering our mattress with a particular tool as DH has a dust allergy, etc). This is because once upon a time I used to have to manage a small stately home and I am used to developing and implementing effective housekeeping systems. I went through all this twice when standards slipped, and it was ignored. Every time I broached it after that I was told either it had been done (which it hadn't) or there was too much to do and that was why corners were being cut. I found this odd because I could get through it all in the time, and I am not at my fittest, to say the least.

Dismissing people as mere 'staff' and being rude is not good in the long term, as they tend to sleep with your husband after that, or steal your credit cards, IMO.

I think if there was some course on how to manage domestic staff and be less sensitive about it, I would be the first signing up, though.

Feeling sick and guilty?? Noooo - you have been VERY generous. She wasn't being loyal by changing her schedule, she was just doing what everyone does for their employer, which is try and be amenable so you can continue to work together. You sound to have been a dream employer. I think forget about her, but try and take what you learned on board ie about being less emotionally involved - she isn't a friend, she is someone who works for you. Agree that rudeness is unacceptable, but you don't have a personal relationship - its a business relationship, just in a v personal setting.

No wavering or feeling guilty.

If you pitch it to certain agencies they'd probably be very interested....

All the blokes in my life say I am a big softy when it comes to domestic things, and need to mind less.

But I find blokes often say that sort of thing. I wonder if it's that they are utterly unaware of the Language of Female Subtext.

Hello Frakkit, by the way. Are things OK your end?

Much better actually, thanks!

My mother left this morning so I've spent today mostly moping, but if I'm telling you it's going much better on a relatively bad day that gives you some indication. Up until Easter I'd have told you it was still horrendous/I hated it/wanted to go home though.