AIBU to think the Goverment is

[Blackness]

Bang out of order to be planning on changing the law on redundancy packages and striking rules, just so they can force through their new cuts.

Labour tried to do it the right way, by getting the Unions to agree, and they didn't. So the Conservaties think Fuck you we will simply do it the underhanded way.

Just like reducing the tax credits to £23k a year despite telling us 40k.

regret my Tory vote now....

Democracy...... What Democracy Mr Cameroon. Goverment loses in court, so you change the law instead.

You Sir quite frankly Stink!

Teling bosses that they had to have the same pension arrangements throughout their workforce would be a good start.

So many companies where FS schemes remained open for the top brass while they closed it for everyone else.

That would be good with the "boss can't earn more than x times lowest paid".

In fact make it so that everyone in a co has to have the same T&Cs full stop.

So why don't you move to the private sector, mumcentreplus? (I don't mean now, obv, in the current economic situation). If private pays better than public, did you really stay there just for the pension? Are you telling me that the public sector is stuffed full of stick-in-the-muds who will only leave on retirement day. That doesn't exactly make for a vibrant, open-to-new-practices work environment, does it.

Did you not look at nurses and notice that their sector got a payrise once they all started deserting in droves for overseas or different jobs.

Good point about coming to state SAF.

If someone is amde redundant then they get JSA based on contributions but all the bits arund it- housing provision, council tax, income support for kids- is absed on what moeny they ahve in the bank.

And believe me they check every penny; when we went through the process some time back it was delayed becuase I couldn't find paperwork for an old account with a long standing balance of 4p.

If someone has a decent enough redundancy package then teh state has a good cahcne of avoiding huge payments becuase eprosn can be self supporting for the time it takes to find work again.

It would be nice to have some element of assurance in teh private sector pensions as well - it's not just the amounts paid in that differ so drastically between the sectors, but that one has a guaranteed payout, while the other, even if you pay in really well for years, if the stockmarket is fucked when your time comes then you lose half your retirement money.

There must be a better way of doing all of this.

I really want to know what these friggin amazing benefits are???...

drloves I agree with you, but rather than attacking benefits we absolutly need to be looking at the super rich - is not the top 50% of earners that are getting richer, its the top 1%

DH and I work hard, we are average income earners, we live in a very small rented house (albeit in a v. expensive area) and we are going to see our standard of living drop over the next few years because of pay freezes. The rich - who got us into this bloody mess - will not see their standard of living drop - in fact all of these cuts are designed so that they can infact get richer because that is how the economy currently works. Meantime many people will be in a worse position than me, they will lose their jobs, jobs will be outsourced to make savings - going overseas (private sector) or being subcontracted (public sector, same job, by same people earning less money, with fewer benefits so that Capita can turn a bigger profit) The system is broken and no one is trying to fix it - because the people with the power are making money out of it - and it isn't the tories, white, public school educated millionaires seem to be in charge of all the political parties.

im learning loads from this thread btw ! i didnt know that many pensions are linked to the stockmarket ...bit scary ,am thinking wall street , black friday.

'So why don't you move to the private sector, mumcentreplus? (I don't mean now, obv, in the current economic situation). If private pays better than public, did you really stay there just for the pension? Are you telling me that the public sector is stuffed full of stick-in-the-muds who will only leave on retirement day. That doesn't exactly make for a vibrant, open-to-new-practices work environment, does it.'

Because I became pregnant..where would you rather be?...

Guaranteed pension
Enhanced maternity pay
Enhanced redundancy pay
Subsidised canteens
Subsidies on travel or even free travel (DH and I both have free oyster cards so that's worth £3K a year)
Long holidays
Flexible working conditions
DH gets vouchers for loads of random stuff

That's just off the top of my head. Obviously not all public sector employees get all of that but they are some I can think of.

Plus there's stuff I know about like people taking 2 weeks every time they go sick as the way the sickness is worked means that they might as well.
And people who are rubbish at their jobs keeping them/being moved around rather than sacked due to unions and so on.

The latter two are down to bad management in those particular areas though. That is another thing that should be addressed maybe. The attitude displayed by some of my DHs colleagues is shocking, which probably doesn't help my feelings. Apparently they were asked to check the tyres on their vehicles before they went out, and one bloke started going on to the managers that it was disgusting that they should have to do it as they're not trained mechanics, he didn't see why they should have to do it, etc etc Normally when someone asks you to do something reasonable in work you get on with it, not so where he works, it seems...

"I really want to know what these friggin amazing benefits are???..."

"Because I became pregnant..where would you rather be?..."

Answered your own question there, mumcentre. As ISNT says (11:33), some of those in the public sector don't appreciate what they have.

I smiled at that too purits

I urge you all to watch this fab video, Crises of Capitalism, it's a really good animation which I think most of you would enjoy.

Pitching people against the public sector is just a tactic, it means that when our services are reduced and reduced we'll blame the lazy public sector workers and fat cat management instead of the government.

Also, I can't understand why unions won't agree to pay cuts to save vast numbers of jobs? This is what we did at my private sector employer, it worked well, even though it was obviously crap being paid less for while.

Fair enough Sancti, just gets boring to see opinions based on perception rather than reality, over and over again. I'll leave you all to it

It IS some of those though, do remember.

I worked in sector forr 18 months; was pre minimum wage and my income on base grade was a pittance (£6085 in 1995), I did have flexible working but that was really to cover their arses- I still had to do my 40 hours whatever, whether I started at 7 or 9 of a morning.

Didn't get any of the rest. We did get a half day each for Christmas shooping and Maundy Thursaday buut nobody would have bothered much to lose them on balance.

WRT to enhaned redundancies only a guess but where I was senior staff ween't allowed to work in an equivalent type of company for several months after as there was a conflict on interest risk. Wold be harsh to maintain that but axe the extra that meant they could keep afloat during the time- at least in publilc / third sector jobs I have held tehre has been the option to just move elsewhere

I have a lower pay..so people in the private sector should also 'appreciate' what they have and many have what is listed above as well...you cant have it both ways..in the extensive list above I have 4 of those benefits...I pay into a scheme which gives you special offers and discounts its not free...I find it strange that people treat civil servants as though they are not worth having any benefits or have too much because they pay our wages..newsflash we pay tax too...

Why can't I have it both ways?

Why can't I have fair salaries and benefits for people who work in the public sector and people who work in the private sector (and indeed the 3rd sector)?

Why are people who work in the public sector so horrified at the idea that things might be improved for those who work in the private sector, instead preferring to say that they deserve it due to their wages (even though statistically and IME public sector salaries are higher as well) and people who work in teh private sector can get stuffed with their concerns that they have no pension provision etc as they don't deserve anything better.

It seems a very anti-socialist approach TBH. Both sides are entrenched in their set ideas and are set at war. it's ridiculous.

Mumcentreplus Public sector workers pay tax but they do not actually generate tax.

Surely anyone can see that 6 years wages as a redundancy package is ridiculous? Just as ridiculous as people in jobs where their employer has no compulsion to contribute anything towards their pension scheme, or indeed provide the facility for one at all.

If I want to contribute to my company pension scheme, the employer makes no contributions, and some of the money I pay in is given to the provider to pay administration costs. I don't see any pubic sector types arguming that that is not fair or should be changed.

You're all as bad as each other TBH. Everyone trying to scrabble to protect their own with no thought for anyone else. Exactly what i see when I look everywhere else. Private company bosses and shareholders screwing the staff, public service people striking (thinking of an example here in London) to protect their own interests even when they are already operating from an artificially privileged position.

None of that does any good for the people in the private sector who do not enjoy bonuses and tihngs, and for those in teh public sector who work hard for little reward.

it's a conspiracy I tell you, to keep everyone at each others throats so their eye is off the ball WRT improving the lot for ordinary people.

thing is wonderstuff , would that cover the amount of money needed for the deficit?
One guy i know (nice old man actually) , has 80 million.
As far as i know he gets taxed at the same rate as someone who has a couple of million....i think he should be in a super earners tax bracket, as his tax is proportionally less ,than the averege earner.
He also has accountants who work to find him tax -loopholes so he doesnt need to pay as much..

I wish I knew more about economics

Then I could solve all of these problems easily

drloves I think that closing the tax loopholes and finding a better way of making sure that people who file tax returns declare all of their income would be a really good start.

I remember hearing on the radio once someone talking about child poverty saying that "the figures are not in actuality as bad as they seem to be, due to the way that many self employed people declare their incomes"

certainly all of the self employed people I know (builders and plumbers and so on, rather than people who run other sorts of businesses for some reason) are quite open about dodging their taxes.

Im actually confused about bonuses ? .
Vouchers for random stuff? subsidised travel?
why not have decent pay rates imo? Do the employers get tax breaks for the bonuses or something? Dont understand the point of it.

It's so that they can employ ten people in a Vouchers and Random Stuff SubCommittee. It's job creation, you see.

Bonuses are usually set up as an incentive to make people work harder / as away of providing a share of the profits. There are no tax breaks on the bonuses - you still end up paying the NI and the employer gets it treated as usual. Not had a bonus for a couple of years as our Company not made profit.