to worry about financials of MIL moving in with SIL?

[NoseyNooNoo]

This is really is really on behalf of my DH who is a bit concerned.

We live in S.E. MIL lives in Yorkshire, is widowed, lonely and a bit depressed. She is 70, going on 85, and I've often worried what will happen when she can't cope anymore given that family is so far away. SIL lives in Ireland with her husband and chidren aged 15-18 years old. They have a medium sized house in negative equity.

SIL has asked MIL to live with them. This will entail MIL selling her house in Yorkshire, SIL selling her house and them buying a bigger house in Ireland. They expect to be mortgage free because MIL will fund it.

DH and I are quite relieved at this because this solves a lot of future problems / stress with MIL as her health gets worse. However, DH is I suspect a bit peeved that SIL and her husband are getting a good deal financially. We're all around the same age but DH and I will have a huge mortgage whilst SIL and her husband will have a similar sized house but be mortgage free. He thinks something should be put in MIL's will to account for the discrepency but given that MIL hasn't got tonnes of cash spare I can't see how things can be divvied up 50-50.

I think to some extent that he should leave it because at least his mum will be happy but I can see his point that his sister and husband will be getting an easy route to good-sized house without working for it - although looking after MIL in old-age seems like work to me!!

I shouldn't have started this. DH is not a money-grabbing bastard who thus far has not cared for his mother. He has put alot more time and effort and comfort (quite happily) into his mother's life than his sister. It was DH who spent 5 years at home caring for his dying father whilst his sister moved country, got into all sorts of trouble and caused general stress to his mother and dying father.

We don't even want her money. My husband isn't tossing and turning about it or wringing his hands in glee at getting his disgusting mitts on his mother's cash. He justs wants the situation clarified to avoid future disagreements. I doubt SIL would look after MIL if she became infirm so we need to know how that care would be funded.

Anyway, my DH has been painted as a money grabbing bastard so I'll leave now. Thank you those who understood my point, esp Cretaceous.

This is the risk of AIBU unfortunately.

I see where your DH is coming from in just wanting clarification, but it is going to sound a bit colder to outsiders when if your MIL needed to go into accommodation/get a carer it could end up costing as much as her house is worth anyway. If you're happy that she's going, she's happy and SIL is happy, I don't know that it's worth causing a fuss over. Has MIL actually made a will? Is there a possibility that there will be some money left over after the new house purchase? It may be that MIL has thought of some of this already.

Well, if the house were in MIL's name that might remove some of those worries? Then it is her house (can be used to fund care were SIL not to step up) and can be included in and estate when she passes. If she is buying it it only seems fair that it is in her name, if SIL is putting some cash in then that relative proportion belongs to her.

If you dont want an honest answer then dont post in AIBU! And for what its worth I think it sounds like money grabbing too, let the poor woman live the rest of her life happily without worrying that shes not leaving her son enough money!

I see the point and I agree that unless it's raised and discussed now, it can cause a festering sore.

My suggestion is that your DH discuss this with his mother. It's reasonable to discuss the issue - after all presumably your now sadly deceased FIL earned the money and your DH spent time caring for him. Some kind of 75-25 arrangement might work.

By the way, has MIL read King Lear?

It's interesting to me to see this debate from the 'other side', so to speak. My parents moved in with us six years ago, the big difference being that my parents divided the equity from the sale of their house between me and my siblings almost evenly (we got a few £k extra but not a lot really). At one point, there was to be a difference of £60k in our favour but neither of my brothers felt that was 'fair', no matter how we argued the fact that it was us that was going to have to look after parents as they grew old, provide roof over their heads etc. So in the end, the money was split three ways. We had discussed options around us paying back some of the extra money if parents died within, say, 10 years of living with us - on the basis that we would have had extra cash without extra work, but now that the cash is split evenly that's no longer an issue.

Anyway, your concerns don't sound money grabbing to me, and I have been on the other end of this, so to speak!

Have to say that I hope I discuss all this with my children to stop any falling out when I die! (Not that I'll have any money to leave...) I've seen so many sad cases where friends who are not on the face of it at all money-grabbing, who have ended up falling out with other relatives because it wasn't discussed openly. Money isn't just money, is it? It's bound up with how much your position as a son or daughter is valued in terms of love. It's really for MIL to initiate the discussion.

I think it's not whether people get 50:50 (obviously not fair in this case), but whether what happens in the end is fair. That might be SIL getting everything if she looks after MIL, and if that's the case and it's done openly, I'm sure the OP wouldn't mind.

LEP - that was a bit unfair of your brothers. I hope that if your parents do grow infirm, your brothers will help. But it was good of your parents to discuss it openly.

we'll not have that problem although mil made a will several years ago and told me 'it was for DH not you or the kids' sil is frittering it away we don't care though we have our own house and both girls [19 & 14]know it is for ds's future care.

Either you don't want her money or you want something put into the will to account for the discrepency and you want things divied up 50-50. You can't have it both ways.

Why doesn't your DH just talk to his DM and DSis rather than fretting.

SIL is in negative equity, so probably can't put any in.

I don't think your DH is unreasonable to be a bit miffed and a bit concerned given he nursed his father to his death, would be the sibling expected to cough up if your MIL needed expensive care, and he sounds unsure as to whether his sister is terribly trustworthy. But the final decision is your MIL's. I would check to see whether MIL has her share of the house legally defined as just that, so she can move out should she choose, and/or care can be funded. That's reasonable. In fact given there are a few rather sad cases where parents in exactly this situation have been evicted by kids and S/DIL who then benefit from the grand new house and try to claim it was a free gift, I think it would be pretty sensible. But mentioning a will, when the work is in theory at least all going to be done by SIL, isn't IMO, no. I understand why he thinks in those terms - he's only human, most people would - but I think the person who nurses a parent to the grave should be thanked, not expected to sell her home after the funeral so an equal division of assets can occur.

I get the sense you suspect she is keen to house her mother to get out of a financial hole, so I'd try to ensure your MIL's interests are legally protected so she isn't destitute (and you aren't landed with the bill of caring for her if SIL evicts, while she lives the life of riley) but apart from that, motive is irrelevant if the arrangement is what would suit your MIL best. Your SIL can be grasping or a saint, but if she cares well for her mother in her last years then IMO she has earned every penny regardless.

YANBU

But if the reason your DH is worried about this arrangement is because of his own finances he is BVVVVU.

His sister wants her mother to sell her home and is planning to sink ALL the resulting equity into her house?

A house in negative equity?

In the Republic of Ireland?

Thus rendering her mother completely dependent on her?

In a country she hasn't lived in recently/ever?

Where elder care is more expensive?

Where there is no NHS and a shitey public health system that is cannibalised by private health insurance?

No, no, no, no!

Your MIL is not dead. She could (and hopefully will) live for YEARS. The financials that need to be considered here are hers.

Please, you and your DH need to do some serious research about this and make sure that if your MIL moves anywhere that her financial independence is protected.

It might be fair for her to contribute some money to a house she shares with her daughter, the negative equity is SIL's problem and it should not be solved by her making her mother destitute.

" Money isn't just money, is it? It's bound up with how much your position as a son or daughter is valued in terms of love."

That's a really good point. It varies family to family, so for one where there isn't a much favoured child to advise one where there is often seems to lead to drama on here (I'm not saying that either scenario is so on the evidence here, as no way to know).

Another YANBU as well.

I think this leaves mil very vulnerable, and if your sil has little experience of caring for the elderly then I think she is in for a huge shock too.

Tbh it makes them both mutually dependent on each other and they may both live to regret this arrangement.

Is there any way of them having a trial run first with no financial commitment.

As for Dh entitement- as an impartial outsider if he has already given up part of his life to care for his debilitated father then I think that put him on an equal footing with his dsis.

I agree with nellie about DH's equal entitlement after this mother is dead.

However, she is very much not dead.

She and SIL won't be mutually dependent on each other once this house is bought with MIL's money (once she has paid SIL's debt). Once the deal is done MIL will be completely dependent in SIL.

Not a good place to be.

If he doesn't care about hte money and getting what he considers fair, then he doesn't need clarification on, well, anything.

OP - I don't think you DH sounds grasping at all. He has given up a lot of time 5 years @ 20k pa quoted on here, to look after his Father without wanting or expecting any reward.

I agree with Skidoodly re the whole moving to Ireland situation. Your MIl needs to have her assets protected, and some assurances that if her health deteriorates and she needs additional care, that this will be provided either from her own reserves, or from your SIL.

If your SIL is not prepared to acknowledge and discuss this, then I think your DH needs to talk seriously to his Mum about whether this is really the best option for her.

Perhaps she would be better selling her home, but buying her own small property either near SIL or near to you whichever she would prefer.

So he has no role in preventing his mother from being left destitute in another country where provision for the elderly is far less generous than where she lives at the moment?

Seriously, anybody asking their elderly parent to spend their money in the Irish property market right now is taking the fucking piss.

There have indeed been many sad cases where a parent has sold their property, moved in with a child and been left destitute. The social services end up pursuing the care costs against the child in court.

SIL sounds a bit not very clued up

"anybody asking their elderly parent to spend their money in the Irish property market right now is taking the fucking piss."

Yep. Skidoodly, aren't there fears Ithat Ireland could be a second Greece, so she could lose pretty well everything, in a country without decent free medical care? And the people who'd end up having to scramble to pay for it all over here are the OP and her DH. Who has already nursed their father for 5 years and could end up doing the same for his mother. I don't think wanting this all clarified and thought through is a bad idea at all.

Would it not be a good idea for her to get independent, unbiased advice first?

Yes, and from an Irish solicitor, because the law over here doesn't mean tuppence if the house and family members concerned are there.

mary I would never forgive a sibling who treated a parent like that. It's not "forgive and forget" stuff, it's "you're dead to me" stuff.

Actually I would get advice from a reputable financial advisor in the UK, not one in Ireland. The MIL lives in the UK now, she needs to talk to someone who understands what she will be giving up in terms of her current entitlements, and she won't necessarily get that from an Irish solicitor.