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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that school photographs are abominably expensive?

139 replies

Birdly · 01/07/2010 14:16

Just got the DC's class photos. Lovely pix of them with their friends and teachers in a cheap as chips cardboard frame - £10.50 each! EACH!

So that's 2 DC and, ideally, I'd like to give a copy of each to my mum. That's £42.

Has the world gone mad?

OP posts:
albertcamus · 11/08/2010 18:57

SPP why the defensive attitude? The total costs for us of our daughters' graduation day were circa £300. We will never have that day again. The photos supplied (by the same company used by my school) were of extremely poor quality. The photographer was effectively incompetent and ruined our memories. You can't put a price on that. I don't blame the other posters for feeling aggrieved; whether you like it or not, the big players in your industry have given it a bad name.

alypaly · 11/08/2010 23:04

just received DS1's uni photos.....what a total disappointment. He has a black gown on and a dark charcoal grey suit,with light gry shirt and guess what f background the stupid company has put it on...go on guess?

albertcamus · 12/08/2010 07:27

:o pink :o CHARCOAL GREY obviously, innit !

Snapper99 · 12/08/2010 08:59

As a proffesional school photographer of many years standing, I would like to say that being in the industry is not a liscence to print money. As with all industries there are many running costs which the general public don't see.

I have worked hard for 30 years and made a reasonable living, but nothing spectacular.

So continue to rip us togs off, illegaly pirating our images and you will eventualy drive us all out of business. But fear not, there is always another naive new tog setting up.

thank you

SchoolPhotoPRO · 12/08/2010 09:34

albertcamus No defensive attitude from me.

I think that the whole issue here is paying for c**p photos from so called professionals - and I totally agree. I don't think anyone would mind paying good money for a professional portrait, but a quick snap, yes, is totally wrong and this is what SPP is now doing something about.

SPP is putting standards into school photography. Our accreditation system is monitored so that the photographers who provides a poor service could loose their status.

There are too many companies that take on inexperienced photographers that produce rubbish and that does not paint a good picture for our industry.

Do all you parents think a standard for school photography would be a good thing?

MumNWLondon · 12/08/2010 09:37

Thats what professional photos cost.

Surprised that anyone would be buying class photos and giving to GPs though, can't see why my mum would want a photo of all the other children etc. I don't buy every year, eg bought in reception will maybe buy year 2 or 3.

re: Individual photos - saved money by buying the one of DD and DS1 together, they had an option of 3 photos no mount for £10, so that way us and the GP each got one, all for £10.

BTW the photos (both school and class) were amazing.

Another option is to speak to teachers and to get a parent to come in take alternative and post round class. DS1's teachers happy about this.

link

Snapper99 · 12/08/2010 10:13

Mum NW london.........

Sure get a parent in. Either they know what they are doing, and can produce good quality stuff and are happy to work for nothing, and deprive a pro of their livelyhood, or they don't know what they are doing and will produce rubbish. Some people are happy with rubbish as long as it's cheap.

Going to a school and taking 600 ports in a day is different to going in with flash on csamera and taking a few snaps.

When your house needs rewiring do you use a qualified electrician or some cowboy.

That analogy can be applied to all trades.

Instead of us all paying taxes so the govt. can employ teachers on 50 grand pa, let the parents do the teaching

AParentInHope · 13/08/2010 23:07

It is a shame that many posters feel the need to attack other posters in a fairly direct manner. There are always differences of opinions on many topics, but surely these can be done in a civilised manner without the associated vitriol.

In any sphere of work, there will be individuals who perform on a range from excellently to poorly. That does not give anyone the right to tarnish everyone with the same brush.

Also, in many spheres of work, probably more especially in creative spheres, surely credit must be given for the ability of the creative individual. Earlier the following comment was stated:

"The Mona Lisa is only a piece of canvass and 10pence worth of ink, but it is priceless. Why because of the artist."

It is also quite easy to give the impression that the work done by another individual could easily be done by oneself despite the necessary skill levels.

Snapper99 · 14/08/2010 13:07

My post explaining why panoramic class photos are more expensive than traditional, seems to have been deleted.

There was nothing offensive or otherwise in it.

Is this normal behaviour from the administrators of this forum?

LookToWindward · 14/08/2010 14:03

As a semi-professional photographer I can safely say that I've never seen a school portrait shot that was worth the money.

To be honest, all the stuff I've seen could have been done by someone an enthusiastic amateur with an entry level DSLR on full auto.

Perhaps twenty years ago they may have been worth the money but in the digital age of automatic metering and focusing I don't really see the point - there's no skill involved anymore.

Actually, maybe the larger format year / class photos may be worth looking at but other than that...

Lyndipops · 14/08/2010 18:26

Look to the wind? you can not be serious..???

If you are a semi pro where on earth do you use auto settings in a studio set up?

You have heard of light meters I presume?
Key lights and fill lighting?

My other half is a photographer and I have never heard such tosh!

So as a Semi pro do you shoot weddings on auto? Because I know five photographers and none of them use AUTO. I guess you are the type to charge £350 for a wedding when it should be £1000.

I suggest you look at companies Like www.ward-hendry.com or www.class-photos.co.uk or even www.nextgenschoolphotography.co.uk/

School photos have changed. no longer is it just come and sit down, click off you go!!!

alypaly · 14/08/2010 22:49

ha ha albertcamus (sorry for the late message) If it had been pink at least i could have seen his gown.

I phoned them and basically told hem the photos were of a crap standard and asked them to lighten the background.

They said send the others back. So I said NO,you send me a proof of the lightened one first and then i will see if it is any better.

I bet they just lighten the whole thing up and then my son will look like a ghost.

alypaly · 14/08/2010 22:52

just emailed the uni to complain about the photos,as graduation photos are a good source of income for them with the percentage they take.Dont think there will be excellent sales from this shower of snap takers. If enough parents complain,maybe a new company might get the contract or maybe they might see which amateur photgrapher was soooo bad.

Hulababy · 14/08/2010 22:55

I only ever buy one copy of the class photo - and that is for DD to have in her room, and then year later it goes in her memory box. I'd have never considered buying grandparents a class photo - if the individual ones are nice, I sometimes get them a little one of that though.

I don't like the modern informal style ones. Luckily DD's school do formal traditional ones.

I had to be an informal one with the Y1 class I work with. All very akward, forced to stand and pose in odd ways in little groups. Didn't like the overal effect later on either when they merged them together.

MumNWLondon · 14/08/2010 23:31

snapper 99 - I wasn't suggesting doing a pro out of pictures, just that its very expensive for many parents to buy a class photo each year.

Some parents can't afford it. So a parent taking a class photo is a good compromise. Those who can afford it can still buy the official one. Those who can't have a parental one for free.

Some jobs do become obsolete though as technology moves on....

LookToWindward · 15/08/2010 00:26

I don't use auto, I'm pointing out that the majority of school portrait pics I've seen look like they have (or could well have been taken with it).

Certainly, the school / graduation portrait stuff doesn't involve much skill - at least none of the stuff I've ever seen does.

And I don't shoot weddings (I don't have the eye for that kind of thing aside form anything else), most of my work is commission based (I specialise in macro stuff). I'm not saying that there's no skill involved in photography - I'm saying that there's very little skill involved in the typical school portrait any more. Any that was required in the film age has long since been frittered away by the auto metering, instant preview etc etc from todays kit. It seems to be little more than a sausage factory now.

Based on what I've seen, they're certainly not worth the money.

Actually, if I'm being honest I think a good chunk of the "skill" nowadays is in post.

SchoolPhotoPRO · 15/08/2010 09:11

We actually run school photography workshops all over the UK and a lot of photographers book thinking it's an easy business - they very often go away thinking the complete opposite.

There is a LOT more to school photography than just photographing the pupils.

SchoolPhotoPRO · 15/08/2010 15:49

One of our members asked us to post this:

=========================
"I don't use auto, I'm pointing out that the majority of school portrait pics I've seen look like they have (or could well have been taken with it).

Certainly, the school / graduation portrait stuff doesn't involve much skill - at least none of the stuff I've ever seen does.

And I don't shoot weddings (I don't have the eye for that kind of thing aside form anything else), most of my work is commission based (I specialise in macro stuff). I'm not saying that there's no skill involved in photography - I'm saying that there's very little skill involved in the typical school portrait any more. Any that was required in the film age has long since been frittered away by the auto metering, instant preview etc etc from todays kit. It seems to be little more than a sausage factory now.

Based on what I've seen, they're certainly not worth the money.

Actually, if I'm being honest I think a good chunk of the "skill" nowadays is in post.?

This was a great little camera that I owned and I think it was available from about 1986

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikon_F801

As well as the features listed above it also had an automatic film loading ?failure? warning as well as motorized rewind of the film.

So this camera was
Auto focus
Auto exposure with (the still current) PS and A settings as well as manual.
Motorised frame advance and rewind.

Film is very forgiving. I mean really forgiving. You can overexpose film by 4 or even 5 stops and underexpose by 3 and still get a reasonable print from that negative. I used to include that exercise for students when I taught photography. It?s this ability for film to have 32 times more light than is correct and 8 times less light that made single use (disposable) cameras available.

Loaded with 400 ISO film a set aperture of about F8 and shutter speed of 1/125.
Whatever the lighting conditions the camera takes a picture at those settings. So once the film is developed and depending on the lighting there will be grossly over and under exposed pictures which are all compensated for when printing.
This is done automatically by the printing machine which has similar technology to the auto exposure systems in cameras.
However, the camera?s (and printer?s) auto exposure system is only accurate for about 70% of typical scenes, Those that have an equal amount of dark and light areas. Other than that they will both get it wrong, which is why in most cases an operator with some technical knowledge is required.

I would encourage anyone reading this thread to take a look at any family or holiday pictures you have from the 80?sor 90?s that were taken on a reasonable film SLRs and compare them with the prints you are getting now from your DSLR and I?d bet that they are at least as good as your digital prints and in most cases better.
Why? Because the auto exposure systems in cameras then and now is all but useless except for ?typical? scenes.
The standards of labs were better then as there was more operator input. But, more particularly as the auto exposure modes in modern cameras is useless and digital is far, far less forgiving than film. In fact a typical Jpeg file needs exposure correct to 1 to 2 stops over and 2 to 3 under. A badly exposed digital file yields a very bad print.

To address the comment
?I don't use auto, I'm pointing out that the majority of school portrait pics I've seen look like they have (or could well have been taken with it).?

For them to have been or look like they have been taken in auto would have meant that the photographer would have used a system flash gun mounted on the camera or even the camera?s pop up flash. If they were taken in that way, the lighting would be very harsh with a distinct shadow on the backdrop. We would all have seen the effect from photographs we have taken at night or in low light when the flash is used. If this is the standard of photography any of you are getting from your school photographer you have every right to complain.

If there is no shadow but clearly additional artificial (flash) lighting of some kind used then it is just impossible that that photograph is taken in auto. The camera?s auto exposure system does not integrate with the studio lights that most photographers use as the poster of this comment should know.The camera must be set up manually and some method, normally an infra red trigger or cable connected from the camera to the lights to fire them as the shutter is released.
It is true that modern system flashguns (flashguns made by the manufacturer of the camera) can be set up to auto expose and be used unconnected to the camera but again that is all but useless. However, I do use that system for certain types of work for its portability and convenience and only for its wireless capability and never in auto mode as it is too inaccurate and manually setting up the power of the flashguns gives more accurate and consistent exposures. However using system flashguns (but not in auto mode) I could see as a real benefit for macro work (for non photographers reading this, macro is essentially close up photography where typically the subject is rendered life size) where additional lighting can be placed off camera and triggered by the camera?s wireless system.

?- I'm saying that there's very little skill involved in the typical school portrait any more. Any that was required in the film age has long since been frittered away by the auto metering, instant preview etc etc?

This comment is quite simply wrong. In fact the opposite is true.
10 years ago a photographer would go into a school.
Hang up the mottled blue or brown back drop, or the ?library? scene with the books in the back ground.
Use an exposure meter to set the level of the two lights.
Put the camera on a tripod and pre focus the lens at the distance the subject would be for a head and shoulders portrait.
Set the shutter speed for flash sync and aperture to the value the light meter gave for the lights.
Load the camera with 35mm film. Check that there was no loading error.
Sit the child down ask them to smile and take the picture. If the child blinked take another but if not move on to the next child.
Take all the rolls of film to the specialist lab which would print them all (except duplicates) to the packs that the photographer had arranged.
Deliver the packs to the school and in a few weeks collect the money for the ones purchased and take back the ones returned, pay the school their commission, return the unsold packs to the lab for a partial refund.

Now the photographer, as well as shooting on the above backdrops, may have to shoot on white, (very tricky to get right as the countless bad examples on the web are testament) full length and head and shoulders, shooting against black (very tricky as well) possibly shooting as well at the time or additionally for school records integrated with data bases.
And additionally taking multiple poses of the subject.

When complete, downloading to very expensive high powered computers with ample memory and a reliable back up systems. Edit those pictures and adjust for optimum colour balance and density on a good quality monitor typically £1000+ that requires re-profiling every few weeks using expensive hardware and software to ensure consistent files to the labs requirements.
Organise the pictures so they can be automatically proofed in twos or threes depending on the photographers proofing arrangements, post or send by wire the photographs to the lab.
Send the multi pose proof sheets to the school. Deal with all the enquiries regarding mixing packs, removing spots and blemishes, lost proofs, never had proofs (child actually wasn?t at school that day), collect the orders, process them and send them to the lab for printing. Paying the lab considerably more than supermarket photofinishers whose prices I am sometimes quoted, for the guarantee of print longevity (I don?t want pictures coming back to me in three or four years time that are starting to bleach or stain due to poor processing) the consistently good quality of the prints and colour and density correctness they produce and the great systems they have in place for accurate order fulfillment.

Deliver pictures to school and pay school commission (anything between 20 and 30% ) and then deal with late orders and complaints about administration fees after the return deadline and with complaints about photographs not received which were not it generally turns out ever ordered.

Easier now? Absolutely not.

However, that is our lot as photographers and of course I don?t expect and neither am I looking for any sympathy. Just explaining that getting those finished photographs to you requires a number of different skills including photographic.

However, to sum up, if you are being offered poor quality photographs from the educational institution your child or children attend, tell them to change the photographer and employ a professional.
If you think the photographs are too expensive, tell the institution not to take a commission which will lower the price by up to 30%.

Snapper99 · 15/08/2010 18:19

Good post SPP

Who are you BTW?

Send me a PM if you like on our forum

Uncle R

Hulababy · 15/08/2010 18:53

I work in an infant school and I can say that, for our school at least, the hotographer takes approx 10-20 sec per child taking one or two shots at the most. It is nothing more than a production line where I work.

DD's school is a bit different as their photographer is linked to the school (independent prep) and has children at the school. They are taken in the summer, outside, on the grass. Having been there when they were taken once more care was taken and longer taken per shot. Again only one or two shots ever taken though - good photograher only needs that many generally anyway. Still expensive though.

Infact last year was a special celebration year for school and you could buy a photobook of the year - but it was £100! Ouch. I didn't bothet.

SE13Mummy · 15/08/2010 19:23

I have yet to buy a school photo of DD by herself - both the nursery and Reception ones were of a hunched over child with a weird smile. She didn't look like DD so I didn't buy one and took advantage of a special package that a local photographer was offering so that we ended up with a nice picture of her at that age (but not in school uniform).

When she was in nursery I bought the old-fashioned class photo but haven't bought this year's one as it is a panoramic montage thing with the 5-year-olds standing with hands on hips looking 'cool' or stroppy. I don't want a photo of my 5-year-old pretending to be 13! I did e-mail the company who took the photos to ask if it would be possible for one of the far nicer, non-stroppy shots to be used (it is possible to view the 'friendship' group shots online) but never heard back.

I would have preferred an old-fashioned, stand in rows picture that meant we didn't need to have full sight of some of the inappropriate slogans on t-shirts (optional uniform school) or loads of Ben 10s on view. I was also uncomfortable with some of the supposed friendship groups (I teach a different class at DD's school); one class had children arranged according to the colour they were wearing rather than with their friends and one of the children with Autism was standing all alone :(.

I would like to buy a reasonably priced memento of my child's year in school. I don't need a class picture to be trendy/arty as it won't be displayed in my home but kept for DD to look at in the future/whenever she wants. It would be nice to have the children's names on the back/somewhere if it's a class photo. If it's a photograph just of my child I would like it to look like her!

I'm no photographer but I've been taking pictures in and around school of the children at work because we need to update our prospectus (an in-house job). Having spent the best part of a week crawling around the classrooms and lying on the playground/assembly hall floor I have taken well over 2000 pictures. Some are rubbish but some are pretty amazing (even if I do say so myself) and lots of people have asked the office staff who took them, no-one expects it to have been a lowly teacher. I did however have them all professionally printed which has made a world of difference and I have used free printing offers to enable me to give each child/parent a copy of any photo their child is in. My photos won't replace something taken by a professional but they've captured children as they are in school which is something quite different from the school photographs that are usually done.

octopusinabox · 15/08/2010 19:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LookToWindward · 15/08/2010 21:01

Please don't insult me. I'm perfectly aware of what goes in to taking a good portrait, what a decent post setup looks like and what's involved with a decent lab. However nothing I've seen looks like it's had anywhere near this attention.

I'm still of the opinion that school photographs are by and large a waste of money -
sausage lines taken by someone with the bare minimum of knowledge. No care, no attention to detail.

Who knows, perhaps I've just been unlucky?

My advice to anyone wanting a nice shot of their kids is avoid school togs like the plague and visit a local (independent) studio. You might pay more but you'll actually get a decent picture.

SchoolPhotoPRO · 16/08/2010 10:02

Again... I've been asked to post this from one of our members:

LookToWindward
?Please don't insult me. I'm perfectly aware of what goes in to taking a good portrait, what a decent post setup looks like and what's involved with a decent lab. However nothing I've seen looks like it's had anywhere near this attention.

I'm still of the opinion that school photographs are by and large a waste of money -
sausage lines taken by someone with the bare minimum of knowledge. No care, no attention to detail.

Who knows, perhaps I've just been unlucky?

My advice to anyone wanting a nice shot of their kids is avoid school togs like the plague and visit a local (independent) studio. You might pay more but you'll actually get a decent picture.?

I?ve re-read the post I made and I can see nothing insulting. A few typos and some grammatical errors but that can?t be what you mean? If I have insulted you then I apologise, but I am still at a loss to see where the insult is.

You stated.
?I don't use auto, I'm pointing out that the majority of school portrait pics I've seen look like they have (or could well have been taken with it).?

I simply explained for you and the other readers of this thread who may not be interested in the technicalities of photography what traditional school photograph would look like if it was taken using the camera?s flash on auto. If it didn?t have the harsh lighting and hard shadow then it could not have been taken in auto.
I then explained why technically (I hope it wasn?t too boring to those who aren?t interested in the technicalities) why the picture could not have been taken in auto and I think that explanation is of benefit to other readers who now know that it is impossible to take a school portrait in auto and what it must look like if it is.
If you knew all that, then it was irresponsible and misleading to have made the claim.

?I'm not saying that there's no skill involved in photography - I'm saying that there's very little skill involved in the typical school portrait any more. Any that was required in the film age has long since been frittered away by the auto metering, instant preview etc etc from todays kit. It seems to be little more than a sausage factory now.?

I addressed this point, your inference being that somehow it is easier taking school photographs now than it was years ago on film. Having shot schools on film, through the difficult transition to digital, to the now established digital technology, I felt I was well placed to comment. And simply, again for the benefit of any interested readers, explained the workflow and business then and now. Now, it is without doubt more complex.

?I'm still of the opinion that school photographs are by and large a waste of money - sausage lines taken by someone with the bare minimum of knowledge. No care, no attention to detail.

Who knows, perhaps I've just been unlucky??

Yes it is true, that there is often not a great deal of time, but that is an imposition placed on us by the school. However, if the pictures you are getting obviously show a bare minimum of knowledge and no care or attention to detail then I would have to agree that you are getting a raw deal and I would complain vigorously to the school to change their photographer.

?My advice to anyone wanting a nice shot of their kids is avoid school togs like the plague and visit a local (independent) studio. You might pay more but you'll actually get a decent picture.?

That?s good advice, although high street photographers are getting harder to find. Although I don?t run a studio, a number of SPP members do run their own studios as well as photograph in schools. It?s worth pointing out to other readers should they investigate that option that they will be paying between 4 and 10 times the price for their photographs than the school photography company is charging and probably a sitting fee as well.
Why will that cheap bit of paper be so expensive? Because it costs so much to actually get that image on that piece of paper.

Snapper99 · 16/08/2010 10:48

There has been comment that some parents don't like a particular style of photography. School togs can't please all the people all the time. School photo companies offer schools the different styles, and the schools choose the one they like. Schools may canvas the parents first, and go with the majority, but when I suggested that to one of my schools they felt they had enough work to do. We don't impose our wishes on the schools. I did the new style panoramic groups for one of my schools. The sales were patchy. I sent a questionaire to the parents of the classes that hardly bought(BTW it costs about £40 to produce the display copy and proof cards for one class pic). The replies were negligable. Perhaps the parents in those classes found a way to illegaly copy the pic, thus depriving the tog and the school of income.
I intend to alternate the two main styles in future. One of my schools requested that instead of the normal H/S shot in uniform, I did an informal shot in street clothes. Some parents liked the idea, others thought it inapropriate for a school pic.
Re the point about the tog failing to get a good expression from the child.... Us independants rely on good pics to boost our income. We are not paid hourly. However no matter how hard we try, some pupils are either too intimidated by the event or just deliberately bolshi. We can't produce 500 masterpieces in the time the school allow us.

On the question of photos being cheaper to produce since the digital revolution....
I no longer spend £2000 pa on film, but I do spend more than that pa on computers/software/cameras and other associated items.

BTW being new to this forum

DD= darling daughter?
DS= darling son?

Yes?

What other abreviations do you guys use?