to find men in drag offensive?

[bibbitybobbityhat]

as in sexist?

I think it's interesting that gay men are often perceived by women to be very understanding and appreciative of women, eg Gok Wan. In my experience of gay men, and I'm sure some would flame me for generalising, they prefer men's views and way of seeing the world as well as erm the obvious, to the detriment of developing an understanding of women. I've found this can make disagreeing with a gay man very difficult. A senior colleague of mine often gets very frustrated with the women in our department in a way that a straight man wouldn't, as he would have learnt how to successfully work with women. Gok doesn't love women, in fact surely a woman or a straight man could do his job better?

Slight tangent there. As you were.

FWIW I don't find drag offensive, but this thread is making me think about it more - gay men find masculinity beautiful, not femininity, so why the urge to dress up? Perhaps it's some weird maternal thing, I dunno.

I love men in dresses. DH has been dame in panto and I think it's great. Trannies are cool too.

good points missjellycat. I think you are onto something. Most of the entertainer drag queens play a role which is a caricature of women, it is usually an exaggerated hooker type stereotype, it is a male fantasy view. I think that by parodying women in this way they are actually knocking women, not looking up to them as they pretend. They think they are better than women. A quote from one drag artist shows this clearly.

"As one drag queen memorably answered when asked if drag was an insult to women "No, women are an insult to drag queens!".

Thanks for answering this. Its just one of those things where I am trying to get a handle on how we all feel (as in the sisterhood, in the very loosest sense). And, yes, interesting point about the gay men from missjellycat.

I am glad you asked about this as I've had exactly e same questions about it. I've not read anything recently, but back when I was ( and this was when Cheryl Tweedy was a baby ) there was little criticism and mostly celebration of gender identities and sexualities rather than an examination of power imbalances in these representations.

Hope that makes sense, am v knackered!

Has anything in particular stirred you to post, bibbitybobbity ? Only ask because of there being two TV adverts where drag is used.

In one, for the nationwide, the two from Little Britain are dressed as 'ladies' asking about savings accounts. I find that one questionable, despite them mocking their attempt, and really wonder whether the 'creatives' who came up with this for their client were trading on the popularity of the people, and just making a plot to use both characters.

The other is for some car (partner advert has a girl driver, whose grandmother comes across a strawberry flavour condom, and says 'I thought you didn't like strawberries' - motto is that these are modern times). Anyway, second ad has a young man with a couple of friends and asks his father, clearly dressed up and not looking especially appealing, if he can get son and friends into club.

This latter advert strikes me more as sad, that middle-age and older men might feel the need to dress up, and presumably live a rather lonely existence.

I really dislike male comedians dressing up as women. Why can't they just find a good female comedian to work with? To me it's unfunny and offensive, whether it's Monty Python (who otherwise could otherwise be very funny) or Little Britain (who were IMO dreadful all around). The "women" are always really unappealing characters too. I didn't like Paul O'Grady either. Very grating.

But in any other context I don't have any issues with how people choose to dress, and men dressing flamboyantly in drag is quite fun - I'd certainly not dress like that!

I've not noticed my gay colleagues (male and female) being particularly different from any other groups of colleagues.

When the late Arthur Askey played dame in panto he never wore any make-up or fake boobs and he kept his normal voice. His view was that it was funnier if the kids in the audience could spot immediately that the 'woman' was some silly old bloke in a frock. The panto dames I've seen the last few years go for the polar opposite approach - real OTT drag acts - and I honestly find it cringeworthy rather than funny.

God, I thought I was the only one who found men in drag completeley hideous, a nasty and jealous parody of women, I feel that some men who do it actually hate and fear women and try and get back at us by looking so repulsive.
It's like those gay male fashion queens who want women to look like 12 year old boys.
If a man I knew got "dragged up" I would probably go ballistic, I really, really hate it.

Well for what its worth, I have an opinion on drag based on my opinion of transvestites.

My DH1 was a transvestite, which I never came to terms with (hence why we split up). He would dress as a woman around the house and mimic my movements and gestures. It gave me the creeps. If I sat with my legs crossed at the ankles, he would move until he was in the same position. He also bought me underwear for Christmas and then wore it himself. He shaved his body hair off and wore nighties to bed. I do accept that it is a compulsion however. I never used to have a problem with transvestites but being married to one is another story.

As a result, drag queens make me shudder. I DO find them a bit offensive as I think they are camping up how they perceive women and mocking us. However, I did love Lily Savage as I thought that was more about her character than the fact she was supposed to be a woman.

Anyway YABU Bibbity.

I generally don't find them funny if they are serously trying to look like women, or 1 woman in particular, whether Barry Humphreys, Dick whatever his name was, Kenny Everet or Paul O grady. I find them misoginist.
I like little britain and league of gentlemen because the women are amongst many roles they play and they aren't really pretending to be a particular woman or getting at women in the same way.
Monty Python dressing as women complete with beards and obviously male physique are funny.

As with most things, I think it depends on how it is done. I've seen some amazing drag acts, and some that are absolutely hideous.

For those of you who don't like drag queens, what do you think of drag kings (women as men)? Or of faux queens (women dressed as drag queens)? I know they aren't as common but are still within that spectrum

I also think gay men can be more misogenistic than straight men. Gay men talking amongst themselves can be quite nasty about women. i don't understand why a gay man would want to be a designer for women's clothes either.

I don't find it offensive.

Some drag acts are tedioius others are really funny.

I like going to Rocky Horror shows and like looking at the effort that goes into the costume. It is hysterical seeing a bloke walking in high heels doen some stairs and trying to get into a row of seats!!

I get the Little Britain joke... That they (the characters rather than Wallliams annd Lucas personally) are acting like they think laydees (sorry!) act and dress but fail miserably.

So from my POV I haven't got an issue with it.

I think drag can be highly offensive. Sometimes just tedious. Occasionally subversive (as Blu said).

In the main, rather offensive and rather tedious. YANBU.

We just had equality and diversity training at work and it was delivered by two trans women (men as women). They talked about the history and cultural baggage surrounding drag as being based in misogyny, right back to ancient Greek theatre, via the Elizabethan stage and 19th century music hall and admitted to finding it problematic.

It was an amazing training session, by a group called Gendershift. There were male and female staff present and it turned into a brilliant, snigger-free group discussion at the end.

We just had equality and diversity training at work and it was delivered by two trans women (men as women). They talked about the history and cultural baggage surrounding drag as being based in misogyny, right back to ancient Greek theatre, via the Elizabethan stage and 19th century music hall and admitted to finding it problematic.

It was an amazing training session, by a group called Gendershift. There were male and female staff present and it turned into a brilliant, snigger-free group discussion at the end.

I kind of agree.

I used to work in a shop and there was a 'tranny' (hope is ok to say) who came in regularly. He looked awful, appalling clothes, dreadfully applied lippy, and insisted in twittering away in the absolute silliest, mock high-pitch voice I have ever heard.

I was only young at the time but I used to think 'fuck off mate - have you ever met any women who actually look or act like that?'.

It was as if he was taking the mickey out of women.

I do think transsexualism and transvestism and drag are all rather different and we shouldn't talk about them as interchangeable.

ruthosaurus - that's a really interesting post.

I opened this thread all ready to say YABU, but on reading through it, perhaps not. There are some really interesting posts on here.

I do have to admit though, that I think I will always find Some Like It Hot hilarious.

This quote was from earlier:

"i do find the stereotyped dress / behaviour of some transvestites a bit offensive, even though obviously it is their choice to dress as they wish
i just think it seems to be a warped view of what women are like - when of course women are all shapes, sizes, styles"

Many trannies would agree with that. The little Britain "rubbish transvestites" are trying to do everything in as ladee-like way as possible whereas women don't. I've met lots of trannies who do the same thing. They copy what they think they see which is often wrong or distorted.
The whole Trans area includes people with a varied lot of reasons for cross dressing. From fetishy types to transsexuals. There tends to be some amount of appreciating femininity it it that you don't always get with drag queens who are normally gay.

You occasionally get a REALLY foxy babe!

Tiggy x

As Tiggy says, the Little Britain pair - though I agree they are misogynistic in a lot of sketches - are actually mocking Transvestites in those "Laydee" sketches, not women.

They have taken the question a lot of people ask: "Why do men who want to dress as women wear frilly blouses and skirts when most women wear jeans and t-shirts all the time" and exaggerated it for comedic purposes.

hester - so interesting I felt it deserved repeating . But thanks! They are doing another sesh on public speaking next week as part of Staff Development Fortnight (I know) so I have signed up on my day off with puppyish enthusiasm. They were that good.