To not want to be forced to do an 'Alpha' course just to get my child Baptised

[Happybutknackered]

I believe in God and have attended church all my life. So why should I have to 'prove' it in order to have my child Baptised? Surely this is between me and God - not the church?

"The new vicar has been at the church for 8months. I have since learned that two other regular attenders have left because of this new rule. "

that in itself should tell him he's being unreasonable to expect everyone to adhere!

i've been going to church all my life, but i really hate the Alpha course idea - it is just too down your throat, and does seem a bit like brainwashing.
i have never attended a course, but have read all the stuff on their website, and have heard too many references to "such and such attended an alpha course and was so moved that they became a christian".
that's why i would never attend a course, and if i were told i had to in order to have my child baptised at my church, i would a) tell the vicar where to stuff his crap and b) get my child baptised elsewhere.

i'd still go back to my church after, though, and tell the vicar what i had done and why.

YANBU

I am apalled by this.

I was refused baptism for DS1 in the church I got married in (by a new vicar) which I though ridiculous as it was only refused because I had temporarily moved away to a different town. I am still very very hurt by it.

I dont know much about the Alpha course but would write to the Archbishop of Cantebury and local Bishop for a ruling and ask them for an alternative.

I don't know much about Alpha courses - should I be worried that MIL has been on one? Vulnerable elderly lady, frail and getting a bit confused, gave up driving, lovely doc suggested nice ladies from the church run a lift service, MIL ends up getting involved in the church and doing the Alpha course... I thought all this was nice. Are they actually thinking 'wow, she has a big house, bet we can make money out of her'?

Good grief, it was hard enough fending off all the shyster double glazing and mobility aid salesmen, don't tell me the CofE is up to the same scheming!

(MIL has never been CofE, btw, her parents became JWs and she took against religion as a result.)

edam, I am sure your MIL is fine. I am sure that being involved in the church has done her the world of good.

phew, was starting to worry there! Have had some interesting chats with MIL because she really knew zip about the CofE, being brought up by JWs. Alwsya think she must have been a very strong minded 7yo to say 'sod that for a game of soldiers' and refuse to join her parents' new religion.

but can someone tell me how much the Alpha course costs?

I did the alpha course: it did not cost me a single penny; all it was was watching videos for a number of weeks and talking about them

didn't like it much, but that's a different matter

and fwiw becoming an active member of the CofE doesn't usually involve signing over large amounts of money either: I used to put a couple of quid in the collecting tin on a Sunday if I liked what they were collecting for, but there was no pressure

Do you mean how much does it cost the church to run, or how much you pay to go? As has already been said, totally free to go. Churches don't run it for any financial gain, they run it because its a way for people who want to find out about Jesus to learn about and explore the basics.
All it costs the church is how much food they provide - most do a meal. And it costs them time!

OK, thanks, some comment earlier down the thread worried me. Had always assumed it would be free or minimal cost.

Cory, yes, when I've been to church a few quid in the collection does me. Just don't know anything about the Alpha course. I'm an old fashioned brought up CofE, went to CofE school type. I can sing To Be A Pilgrim but current church politics and stuff is really a bit beyond me.

we never had a meal with our alpha course, just a coffee and took it in turns to bring biscuits

I've been on one, for the first two sessions only, at the invitation of a friend (I am not a churchgoer or religious, but was interested in friendly discussion and slightly geeky polite debate; unfortunately there was none of that available, it was a bit "emphasise the huggy bits and avoid all requests for explanations". I was really disappointed).

We did get food, though . It was very busy.

Cannot imagine why a regular churchgoer would need to attend to "qualify" for baptism

I'm also pretty sure the Alpha course is free. If there is any contribution it would presumably only be to cover the cost of the meal.

The minister sounds absolutely nuts. I don't think he can refuse baptism to anyone in his parish, as much as he may be permitted to insist on a meeting to ensure you genuinely do want to bring your child up as a Christian, and I would seriously consider taking the matter to your Bishop. This sort of behaviour does the Anglican communion absolutely no favours.

I'm not CofE, but I was under the impression that being the ESTABLISHED church came with obligations - that if you lived in the parish of that church, you were automatically a parishioner and that church was obliged to marry/baptise/etc all its parishioners who requested it.

Could anyone who knows set me straight here?

Why if you are a practising Christian and churchgoer do you need to go on an Alaph course. Arent' they for peopel interested in becoming chrisitans....

They hve also made Nicky Gumble and his Brompton Oratory a lot of money.

Technically the incumbent vicar can refuse but you can bring in your own - you have a right to be hatched, matched and despatched in your own parish church as my father so charmingly puts it!

OK, here's the deal on money. Nobody pays to go on an Alpha course, the church who is running the course pays for materials etc and sometimes for refreshments (we ran Alpha in a coffee shop, church paid for coffee and cake, others run it in homes and sometimes church pays for food, sometimes hosts pay for food, it often relies on donations). I can see that people may think that the church will gain money in the long run by gaining members therefore getting more in collection, but it doesn't really happen like that and church has the initial outlay.

As far as having to do a course to have child baptised is concerned, I've heard this before and think its a really bad idea for amny reasons-

1. You have to want to do Alpha for it to be successful, nobody should do it because they have been persuaded to.
2. If somebody does Alpha for the wrong reasons, they are less likely to do it for the right reasons at a later date (IYKWIM).
3. Alpha follows a very particular line of theology, it is far narrower than the theology of the CofE for example or than hte Methodist church (of which I am a member) at a national level. Some churches and people within these large organisations do follow the same theology as Alpha, but by no means all. You shouldn't have to sign up to this particular theology to be welcomed into broad churches. My own church is a very Evangelical Methodist church but there are people within it from all shades of the theological spectrum, for some Alpha is too Evangelical, for some it is not Evangelical enough. Nobody should use it as the only way to understand Christianity, especially not broad churches such as the CofE whose member range from very liberal to very Evangelical.

Sorry it was so long, couldn't say it in a less wordy way!

Littlebrownmouse - our Churches Together run a yearly Alpha course and the churces invovled go through from the high CoE through to very evangelical non-denom churches.

I'm with SGB on this one.

The fact that a newborn cannot understand the ceremony anyway, is the elephant in the room.

Why not wait until the child has reached an appropriate level of understanding and then ask them if they want to be baptised?

Child baptism is almost like child circumsion - a bit of a liberty in my eyes. Wait until they're old enough to choose themselves.

child baptism is not the same as confirmation

I do see LostInTheWoods point, but I'd agree with Toccatanfudge - child baptism doesn't involve the baby agreeing to anything (obviously...), it's their parents and godparents agreeing part of how they're going to bring her up, and the congregation agreeing to support them in that. I'd say that compared to adult baptism, infant baptism it's much more about the existing Christians reaffirming their faith, than about the baby. For adults being baptised into the CoE, the service focuses on them and their choice to become baptised, whereas with a baby, it's all about the parents and the congregation.

I recently went to a very moving adult baptism and enjoyed it so much that it did rather incline me towards adult rather than infant baptism. But, as I said, the infant baptism is much more about the parents, and that's very valuable in itself.