To not want to pressure MIL to look after the children more just because DH thinks she should?

[Beachcomber]

Will try to keep this short but clear.

MIL and I have a pretty good relationship, she loves our 2 DDs and likes it when we go to see her (she lives up the road). She has mostly been quite helpful on the odd occasions that we have asked her to look after the children but we do not ask her very often. They are 4 and 6 years old.

MIL has just recently retired - she is quite young, fit and healthy and very active. I work from home and often find it difficult (and stressful) to fit everything in around the children. DH works long hours but we share childcare evenly when he is around.

DH thinks now retired MIL could/should help us out by having the children say one day a week. (We are in France where it is common for GPs to look after children quite a lot). MIL says she doesn't want to get into a fixed routine as she is very busy (she cleans her house a lot and has a big garden).

I have asked her a few times to help me out for a couple of hours and she does when she can but equally often says no.

So, after all that - DH thinks I should be phoning her at the beginning of the week to sort out when she can have the children in order to get her into a bit of a routine of helping. I would find this utterly excruciating to do as she clearly doesn't want to look after the DCs too much. I do call her when I'm stuck but I am utterly unwilling to try to force some sort of arrangement on her.

DH thinks I'm being a woos and have no right to stress over childcare if I'm not going to do this. We don't really have any other help apart from limited help from a child minder (money a bit tight too).

So AIBU to disagree with DH and think that if he thinks MIL should have the kids once a week on principle then he needs to take her to task over it even though it would help me out?

Hmm - potentially a lot going on here Beachcomber. I think your DH needs to distinguish between his MIL wanting/not wanting to spend time with the DCs, and how she is when she is with them, from Childcare.

I think that, as others have said, is within their rights to not do regular childcare - but I can see it would be hurtful if he thought his DM did not want to see the GC. He might also be hurt because he perceives them as not wanting to help him, which is another relationship issue

It's pretty much the same here in Italy. Grandparents are greatly involved in the care of their grandchildren, for many reasons.

A cultural one, that until a few decades ago we had large extended families, where different generations helped each other (and this goes also for adults looking after their aged parents).

One practical/social: that often, for full time working families who need 2 incomes, it's the only form of childcare available.

Sense of entitlement? Maybe, yes, in some cases.

I've always been quite by how lonely nuclear families are in the UK, just as much as the Brits get if a Mil looks regularly after her grandchildren.

Beachcomber, YANBU, especially if your mil doesn't really want to commit.

I think these things ahve to dow ith expectations and hurt feelings.

Look at xmas - mnet is alive with tearful threads about GPs and other family members failing to visit or send gifts. And it's not about entitlement - who afterall needs another plastic bit of tat - it's about the expectations of the season and what that says about you and your DC if those expectations aren't met.

The expectation in much of the world is that GPs will play an active part in family life. Where GPs refuse, one can't help but feel hurt.

Sounds like it's a classic clash between askers (you and your MIL) and a guesser (your DH).

See here.

Ah, how interesting this thread has become!

But, alright, I take back some of my previous outrage (although sorry, the idea that despite it being the cultural norm in France that women all work it is still also the cultural norm that childcare is the woman's responsibility? I don't care if it's the norm, it's still sexist and unfair).

I do still agree with Beachcomber's original position, though. The idea that it is her role to 'train' () her MIL into childcare when her MIL has explicitly said she doesn't want to, is unfair.

My husband and I have very different cultural expectations, FWIW; I come from a classically British, stiff-upper-lip, non-demonstrative family with an extra helping of emotional estrangement. He comes from a large Asian family of big celebrations, everyone rings everyone daily-to-weekly, you drop everything and help out. So he thinks my mother cold for putting her business and social arrangements ahead of ours, I find his relatives suffocating in their expectation that they're included in everything. I didn't send his sister a formal invite to my daughter's first birthday, for example, because she lives the other side of the country and would have had to fly 4 hours with an infant to get there, and it's just a birthday and I didn't want to impose. Wrong move, it turns out.

So I do know something of the subject, albeit not in France. I still say that if Beachcomber's husband finds his own mother's attitude inappropriate, then a) he needs to try and tackle it and b) actually, his mother is a grown woman who wiped his arse when he was tiny, maybe he should respect her wishes and autonomy and deal with it.

That's interesting tortoise about the suffocating/stiff upper lip differences.

I think DH feels a bit pissed off with his mum because she wants the close family thing (we are expected to go to or organise a family get together for every birthday/anniversary/occasion/fart someone does). But at the same time she doesn't want to do anything that doesn't suit her.

She does constantly tell me how much cleaning (she takes house-proud to a level I didn't even know existed) she has to do in order to pre-empt any requests for help. I'm not that bothered by this but I know it hurts DH that she would rather clean her clean house than have the kids for a couple of hours.

I think part of this is due to the fact that I am putting pressure on DH to change his hours a bit so that he takes on more childcare (I sometimes go on overnight trips as company I work for is far away and I participate in training/recruitment sessions). He is trying to palm this off on his mother (he works for himself and does work very hard) because it stresses him to have to deal with it. It stresses me too though.

I work on a commission basis and hope to earn more soon so that we can pay for more hours with the child minder. In order to get to this point though I have to put in a lot of work now.

I can absolutely understand why your husband feels hurt. It's just not appropriate to exepct that she can be changed, much less to assign that task to you.

My parents come over to the UK to help with my DC when DH goes away on business. We try and combine it with a weekend away, too, just the two of us . They fly Easyjet (although we sometimes pay for the fare) and they get to come over, see their grandchildren and watch English TV (they live in France).

My mum loves it - taking DD to school is a novelty for her!

thanks for that link staranise - interesting

Bonsoir-what legal rights & responsibilities do GPs have?

I wonder if the MIL will change in the fullness of time. She has just retired - that's major life-adjustment, and it may take time for her to sort out how she wants to live her life.

I know my own mum (who sees the DCs a lot, and is often available to babysit overnight) was quite reluctant to do Childcare - she worried it would alter her relationship with the DCs from a granny who is there for all the fun things - to someone who is a more responsible disciplinarian (that's over-stating the dichotomy, but you get what I mean).

I think us adult children, with lots of demands, can sometimes forget that our parents are going through ther own stuff and emotional issues as well.

Have also read your link staranise thanks - I think culturally French people definitely tend to be askers. They are also very good at saying no.

OK, I will try to have a better go at explaining to DH why this is more between him and his mother as a relationship thing and then separately between me and DH as a child care thing.

I had a chat with my (French) neighbour earlier and she thinks my MIL is odd because she never offers to have the children - we always have to ask. Hmm isn't that a guesser thing then? .

I think that is true Jamieandhismagictorch. I suggested to DH that we shouldn't jump on MIL the second she is retired with requests for help. We may find once she has a bit of a break and then gets used to having so much more time on her hands that she will be more keen to have the children say for lunch/after school from time to time.

I would definitely agree re. the recently retired needing space. When my parents retired they both more or less took a year off doing nothing and are only now filling up their days with regular commitments etc.

The key to guessers is that they feel there is an expectation that they should always say yes - I remember being asked by friends if they could come and stay on my sitting room floor when I was heavily pregnant with DC1. I got completely stressed, furious with my friends for even asking me and putting me in the position where I wanted to say no but having them to stay anyway. And of course, it all worked out fine - oh, except DC1 did arrive early, when my friends were there, much to their great embarrassment...

Personally, I'm trying to do more asking and less guessing. As the writer says (most of the time, possibly not in your case), saying no usually does not mean the end of the world and people appreciate it when you are upfront.

So your mil likes to stick to the culture when it suits and benefits her?

After reading the whole thread i'm not surprised your dh is hurt and pissed off. I still think it should be him that broaches the subject though.

If you are living by the 'rules' of a culture then surely all should apply. Not just the ones that suit you.

Oh bollocks have I done a dreaded AIBU by cultural stealth on you all - sorry!

Have to go out again - will look in later, thanks for all the replies you are all very helpful and reasonable!

BC It is definitely a matter between your DH and your MIL. You shouldn't be involved.
I am french by the way.
Bonsoir the "rights" of the GP are not set by law at all, some familly are medling, some are close and some are detached exactely like in the UK.
Interresting thread, a different point of view from a french girl who married a british/swedish (i.e. I know DH is not typically british in his behavior).
My mums have clearly stated that she wouldn't take care of her GC regularly, she does emergency cover for my DB when she is free from travelling or having freinds around (I leave too far away). But he is usually asking not my SIL, my SiL can ask sometime too as they get along but it is rare. I dare not ask , only once when I had DD2 and wanted help with DD1 and for CS, 2 weeks was fine but 3 weeks was asking too much.
The babyboomers like BC MiL and my mum are quite selfish and still rebelling against their parents who indeed did help with the GC, but they thought it as parents as "interfering". My mum always defend herself by saying my GM was a PITA, always showing up at her place unannounced..etc, but she did help with us and take us for holidays (at least me). They do think they are making us a favor by not being involved with the children. So I believe the OP MIL come from the same school. My aunt who has always been a SAHM was very interefering, raising her DD 4 children in the US, but it bite her in the a... as she is now not welcome anymore.
There is also a difference between MIL and mums that have worked or not. The SAHM GM will think it is still thier job to care for her GC. The working ones are probably happy to be retired at last, and not want anymore responsability.
BC you can't make your MIL change her mind if she has already said no, your husband how ever french he is should understand that. And if he wants to pick up a fight with his mum he should do it himself.
sorry baby waking from nap I might pop later to see what you have to say

Very similar situation here in Greece with regards to grandparents and grandchildren.

Many children are looked after, after school by grandparents because school finishes early 1.30 and working parents aren't around.

Long summer holidays mean that many children go to grandparents country house with them for at least a month, mine did and they loved it! (so did we!!!)

This closeness reaps benefits for all including (I think) the fact that the elderly are loved and supported within the family in their old age by all generations of relatives

Anna, your breathless delight at all things French and Parisian would actually be quite charming in the manner of excitable 15 year old exchange student visit were it not marred by an ever present tone of shrewishness.

You have probably done more than anyone since Petain to ruin the reputaion of the French.
A shame really as there are some good sorts over there.
Lord only knows what havoc you are wreaking on the reputation of the English amongst your friends acquaintances.

yes, you do Beachcomber

This is very much the norm in Italy too. the long summer holidays (3 months), along with very short school days and the lack of quality childcare mean that it is VERY hard if you don't have help from the grandparents.

My BIL bropught up two children when my sister died and he would have had an impossible time had his and my parents not helped a great deal.

My BIL's parents (and mine) wouldn't have dreamt of not helping despite the fact that none of them were in the best of health. They would have helped even if my sister had been alive (idf she had wanted it) but they just pitched in more that's all.

I don't often agree with Bonsir I have to say, but in this I do agree with her.

BB, and it's getting worse, thanks to the currents gov cuts. We are soon going to loose the "tempo pieno" at school here in Northern Italy. Or it will just turn into a "parking" like it was in the early 70s. Not even grandparents will save this country!!!

I have to say my own experience - as mentioned above - definitely backs up what Bonsoir is saying. There is a definite expectation on the part of the children that their parents will be available to look after/spend time with their children.

Luckily I get on so well with mine.