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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to not teach my DS any English

702 replies

DewinDoeth · 07/06/2010 20:34

Ok, moved from another thread as it seems to have got people going!

DS is two and speaks quite a lot, but only in Welsh.

I live in a Welsh-speaking community, I'm a native speaker and Welsh is my first language (in fact I'm a lecturer in Welsh lang&lit), my entire family are Welsh. DS attends a Welsh medium nursery 2 days a week, and is cared for by my mother 2 days a week. And me the other days! None of the carers speak English with him.
My DH has learnt Welsh to near-fluency, and only speaks Welsh with DS: it gives DH a chance to improve (slowly, with an nonjudgmental speaker ) and has given him a massive confidence boost when it comes to it.
I am not teaching DS any English at all, and I never speak English with him. DS will learn English quite naturally, mainly from the television, or from hearing it around when there are people who don't speak Welsh. It's how it was with me and my English is of a very high standard (no doubt there will be grammatical errors in this post now - but I have an Oxbridge PhD so it can't be all bad).

PILs are not Welsh, live 250 miles away, and have expressed sadness that 'they can't communicate with him'.
They learnt to say hello and thank you in Nepalese when they went on holiday, but despite knowing me for 10 years and my family for 6, they have never learnt any words of Welsh at all, not please or thank you, and say it's pointless because it's a dead language, and it's not an useful language.

OP posts:
DreamsInBinary · 08/06/2010 22:52

I suspect that in the situation you describe, most people - OP included - would not dismiss Italian (the language of the child and mother) as pointless and dead, and would learn three or four phrases so they could hold a basic conversation with their grandson.

scanty · 09/06/2010 00:08

Pedantic, but come on - three or four phrases wouldn't allow basic conversation. No-one would be happy with the situation piscesmoon described - or at least I'd be very surprised if they were!

cory · 09/06/2010 00:22

As another bilingual parent I was coming on here to lend the OP support and pitch into those monolinguals who can't understand what she is doing and that the child will learn English at school anyway. Ditto about the OPs dh being wrong to speak to his son in what is not his native language (I often speak to my dcs in what is not my native language- they are fine).

But then I read the other thread which made it clear that she does want to limit time of with grandparents precisely because of the language issues. And that's where you lost me. Because I don't get it. To me, it's not about the grandparents' rights to their grandchild, it's about the child's to grandparents (unless you are convinced they are actually dangerous or bad for him). Surely you are risking sabotaging any relationship they might have had. Do you think you have a right to make that decision for him? Might he resent it one day?

NetworkGuy · 09/06/2010 02:50

" I only ever speak Welsh to my work colleagues (it is work policy)"

Just curious as to what line of work this is (unless it is an organisation which aims to promote the medium of Welsh) where this is the policy ?

tryingtoleave · 09/06/2010 04:32

It is interesting that you responded to my question about how you would feel if your grandchildren only spoke dutch by saying they would be trilingual because your ds is a welsh speaker. My point was how would you feel if your son turned his back on his language and only taught his children dutch. This is the position you have put your pils in.

weegiemum · 09/06/2010 07:06

MillyR said last night: "So it really comes down to how soon the Father thinks it is acceptable to drop his own culture and have their offspring solely adopt the culture of the other parent and the country of residence."

My dh has actually been quite happy to do that with our children. He's from N.Ireland and his Dad is German, but he speaks no German and was intensely relieved as a teenager 20 years ago to get out of Belfast and off to Scotland to University.

He wants our children to regard themselves as Scottish, with an Irish Dad. Its all pretty complicated as just mentioning the fact that he thinks of himself as Irish causes all kinds of issues with his N.I. Protestant family, who all think they are British.

He says he has no Irish, or even NI culture to fall back on (mainly as he holds political opinions his family think are abhorrent).

So he's happy to have Scottish children, and has been 100% with me on things like Gaelic medium education for them. He wants them to feel like they belong somewhere, which he never has.

lowenergylightbulb · 09/06/2010 07:23

What a storm in a teacup. The OP's kid is going to be bilingual, a very desirable skill. My grandfather spoke only welsh until he was 11...despite that he managed to move to and study in england when he was 15 with no problems.

piscesmoon · 09/06/2010 07:44

'would learn three or four phrases so they could hold a basic conversation with their grandson. '

This will not be enough for basic conversation! When he asks his grandparents in Welsh, how a rainbow is formed they need more than 'Hello-how are you today'!
No one is disputing that he will be fluent in English-unfortunately by the time he is the grandparents have missed 5 or so years of bonding. His maternal grandparents can easily tell answer any question he asks and have abstract discussions.
Did OP tell them that he wasn't going to learn English at home? Did they know that they needed to be seeing him often from birth so that they could talk at length to him in English?

MmeLindt · 09/06/2010 08:08

The OP's DS is not yet 2yo.

At that age my DS was hardly speaking, and in a mix of German/English words.

So my parents learnt that "bagger" means "digger" and my PILs learnt that "bottle" means that he wanted his milk.

The OPs PILs can not explain in Welsh how rainbows are formed, but they can explain in English and he will likely understand, because he is hearing English every day.

I have taught young children English and have seen them learn quite well at young ages, from one class a week and listening to a CD daily.

tryingtoleave · 09/06/2010 08:10

Sorry, I didn't realise the thread had moved on and pisces had asked the same question as me (and put it better)- but did you see the OP's response to my question, pisces? She certainly didn't accept the idea that her ds could give up his languages.

piscesmoon · 09/06/2010 08:27

The whole point MmeLindt is that he isn't hearing English everyday-he never hears it! It is such a shame because if he was hearing it he could understand his grandparents. She is waiting until he goes to school and has wasted the best years for language. She hasn't answered the question tryinto leave-I think she imagines that DS will be as fiercely Welsh as she is and won't marry a Dutch woman with no interest in Wales!
My DS1 had masses of language at 2 yrs and he used to try out new words all the time-he wouldn't have understood that his grandparents were restricted to 'Hello-it is a nice day'!
If I was the grandparent I would be renting a cottage and down several times a year talking to him and I would be phoning or skyping inbetween. OP might decide it was better to do the decent thing and speak to him half in English.

MmeLindt · 09/06/2010 08:30

Pisces
He is hearing English. His parents speak English to each other. He is hearing it every day.

piscesmoon · 09/06/2010 08:39

In that case I don't know what we are arguing about!! They are speaking English to him! DC are like sponges they don't just listen to the words spoken to them-they take in all the rest.
After all this thread it means that DS is hearing English-probably understands far more than they realise and PIL can take him to the zoo!
I can't believe we have come this far to realise that he is hearing English-although I did say at the start that it had nothing to do with language and everything to do with control. OP only trusts her own parents and doesn't want PIL to ever have him without her-or at least not until school age!

thesecondcoming · 09/06/2010 08:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

helyg · 09/06/2010 08:50

"Just curious as to what line of work this is (unless it is an organisation which aims to promote the medium of Welsh) where this is the policy ? "

NetworkGuy I work for Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin. It is an organisation which provides pre-school education for children through the medium of Welsh. We use the immersion method, therefore everything which surrounds the children is in Welsh.

And FWIW children come through our settings from many different backgrounds. Some speak nothing but Welsh at home, some speak nothing but English, some speak both, some speak neither as their parents are from outside the UK.

Even where children speak nothing but Welsh at home, and are educated in entirely Welsh medium settings like these, it is laughable to think that they will not pick up any English. The people who seem to think that this is the case clearly have no understanding of what Wales is like!

chibi · 09/06/2010 08:53

Out of curiosity, those of you getting your knickers in a twist over when (note WHEN not if) the OP's son learns English- what steps are you taking to ensure your toddler/baby is learning another language alongside their mother tongue, given that so many posters have said that being bilingual is so critical to ensuring they have a good future.

pleasechange · 09/06/2010 08:58

thesecondcoming - you seem to be getting rather irate and foul-mouthed about this

piscesmoon · 09/06/2010 09:12

I would absolutely love to be fluent in another language but sadly I'm not. I'm not one for taking toddlers to all sorts of classes but if I had been bilingual myself I would certainly have used it. Most people are not so lucky.
I'm only 'getting my knickers in a twist' because I have 3 DSs and hope to get friendly DIL who actually like me! Shivers of horror run down my spine when you find one who can exclude to such a degree.

thesecondcoming · 09/06/2010 09:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

helyg · 09/06/2010 09:22

You don't actually have to take your DC to classes to learn another language.

DS2 suddenly decided aged about 4 that he wanted to learn Spanish. I don't know where it came from as he has never been to Spain and neither DH nor I speak Spanish (I can speak French and German but am not fluent and I also picked up some Dutch in university). Anyway, we bought some kids' learning Spanish books and CDs and some adult ones for me, and we are learning Spanish together (he picks it up faster than me though)

Bit of a proud mum moment though when some people from Patagonia came to visit their school (they speak Spanish and Welsh in Patagonia). At the end of their talk they asked if anyone had any questions, no doubt expecting the older children in the school to have prepared some. DS2, who was still in Reception, stuck his hand up and asked them a question in Spanish!

We will probably never be fluent but it is good fun. I think the fact that they are already bilingual makes the idea of picking up further languages less daunting, I know it did for me whan I was a child.

cory · 09/06/2010 09:25

chibi, it's not being bilingual that I think is so critical, it's bonding with grandparents

yes, he will learn English eventually- that certainly won't be a problem- it's the bonding that he is missing out on now that seems a shame

because lack of bonding/closeness in the early years can make a big difference to their relationship later on

I do think it is a shame when a parent takes it upon herself to decide what the relationship with GPs is worth- I hated it when my Mum showed her resentment of her MIL to me- yes, no doubt she was a right pain in the butt as a MIL, but I as a child shouldn't have had to deal with that; I wanted a grandmother and couldn't care less about my mum's private difficulties

fwiw I have spent masses of time making sure my dcs spoke their other language from an early age- precisely for the sake of their bonding with the extended family

Jamieandhismagictorch · 09/06/2010 09:55

weegie - what you say about you DH is interesting, and I wonder if it has a bearing on this case as well. The OPs DH doesn't seem to attach much importance to his Englishness. His choice, I suppose, but as I and others have said over and over, this does seem rejecting of a half of this child's family.

Jamieandhismagictorch · 09/06/2010 09:57

cory - I agree with you. My mum also has issues with her MIL (and actually, her own dad too), but to her enormous credit, she never let on about this to us children

Jamieandhismagictorch · 09/06/2010 10:00

sorry, should have said had issues with her MIL - my fantastic nan died a couple of years ago at 97

MmeLindt · 09/06/2010 10:03

Fwiw, I don't think that a lack of understanding should mean that the bonding between OP's DS and her PILs would not happen.

As I have said, my PILs found it difficult to communicate with my DD when she was 2yo and my parents found it challenging with my DS at that age.

The difference between our family and the OPs is that we were more than willing to leave the DC with the respective GPs and just let them get on with it.

I suspect that the OP would be amazed at how well her son would communicate with her PILs, given half a chance.