to not teach my DS any English

[DewinDoeth]

Ok, moved from another thread as it seems to have got people going!

DS is two and speaks quite a lot, but only in Welsh.

I live in a Welsh-speaking community, I'm a native speaker and Welsh is my first language (in fact I'm a lecturer in Welsh lang&lit), my entire family are Welsh. DS attends a Welsh medium nursery 2 days a week, and is cared for by my mother 2 days a week. And me the other days! None of the carers speak English with him.
My DH has learnt Welsh to near-fluency, and only speaks Welsh with DS: it gives DH a chance to improve (slowly, with an nonjudgmental speaker ) and has given him a massive confidence boost when it comes to it.
I am not teaching DS any English at all, and I never speak English with him. DS will learn English quite naturally, mainly from the television, or from hearing it around when there are people who don't speak Welsh. It's how it was with me and my English is of a very high standard (no doubt there will be grammatical errors in this post now - but I have an Oxbridge PhD so it can't be all bad).

PILs are not Welsh, live 250 miles away, and have expressed sadness that 'they can't communicate with him'.
They learnt to say hello and thank you in Nepalese when they went on holiday, but despite knowing me for 10 years and my family for 6, they have never learnt any words of Welsh at all, not please or thank you, and say it's pointless because it's a dead language, and it's not an useful language.

Right, have caught up on the whole thread, and I notice you have not answered the point that has been made several times:

In your other thread (the one that prompted this debate) - you used the fact that the PIL don't speak Welsh as a reason for your son not to go to the zoo with them - a trip which clearly meant a lot to them.

You may feel justified in your resentment of them - they do sound ignorant. But you have argued that your son will pick up English from other sources, including his grandparents. How can he do that if you won't let them look after him? You can't have it both ways.

If a Chinese nanny, with limited English, in Hong Kong can look after an English baby/child, then I'm sure your PIL could look after their GS.

(and I meant - stocks, gallows is a bit extreme )

wahwah, nothing stops the except on the other thread the OP cites the fact that her son is first language welsh as a reason that her pils may not take him out for the day without her being there. It seems like there are other problems but if this was the only one I think you either let them interact and muddle along or you speak to the child in English too so that this isn't an issue.

I've done the classic, and only read the first page of posts, so i'm sure my input will simply be repetitive of whats already been said- huge apologies!

Firstly, Im SO of ANYONE who is bilingual.

I think it's a true blessing and a real GIFT from your parents to bring you up as bilingual. And I mean a GIFT.

I know more than one family, one of which is my cousin, who have brought their DCs as bilingual from the very off.

One speaking the 'other' language, one speaking English. In one family there has been 3 languages spoken due to grandparents.

With My cousin, he moved to Rio for many years and ended up fluent in the Portuguese / Spanish ( excuse my ignorance) that is spoken there. This has resulted in both languages being spoken equally at home. They both speak English too, though his DW is less fluent so, tends to stick to her native language.

Having had exposure to more than one family who have done this, I thought it was fairly usual that both languages ( or more! ) are spoken immediately, so it is entirely natural for the children. There is never a "sudden" introduction to another language.

I also, have a friend who spoke 4 languages, fluently, from very young ages, but his main two were English and Chilean. We asked him what language he 'thought' in, an answer he just couldnt make. He said, he just 'did".. It was a very interesting and curious concept. However, he did fall asleep after a few bevies on night, on the sofa, and woke up with a start, and shouted something in Chilean... so, still, we're not sure what he 'thinks' in!

BTW - I really really don't give a tinkers cuss (good Essex term there ) about the language thing. Good on you for wanting to raise your son within your culture and language.

naturally, that should have been tinker's cuss

I really want to reiterate the point about the shared 'English' culture as well that your ds will pick up when out and about/through friends/the media etc - this is an overarching watered-down English culture and is in no way the same as a shared familial culture that dh could give him.

I think some of the things we pass on are now so antiquated that they never crop up in the wider media and are composites of what our parents told us/old remembered tv programmes/primary school experiences etc.

These thinsg are important - this lunchtime I was singing Little Peter Rabbit to dd - I love singing it because my mother used to sing it a lot to me - in time maybe she will sing it to her dc - thats a direct link to a woman that dd will never meet.

The language thing is a bit of a red herring - only that it enables culture. And specifically a shared childhood culture of those of us of a certain age.

I'm not making much sense tsk...

nice post omni

Omnishambles I know what you mean, using language to transfer memes.

I have to add a very amusing story which is vaguely related...

Luckily, it was not me involved.

I have a very dear, and close Gay friend, whose boyfriend spoke 5 languages. I mean two makes me really quite envious but 5? AND he was entirely fluent in all 5.

Anyway, my friend took him away with him on a business trip - partners allowed for some strange reason! SO, they were all sat around chatting one evening at a formal meal, all the senior bosses etc there too. My friend was trying to really 'sell' his boyfriend who was being really quiet, and shy.
My friend announced to most of the company that " Sven is amazing, told them all about his high flying job etc then,he's so talented in so many ways, he's Cunilingual you know" Of course, with the biggest proudest beaming smile to the whole table

Stunned silence all round- poor Ashley, didnt understand what he'd said wrong...Sven had to explain in very hushed tones, sadly, he couldnt use one of his many languages as Ashley speaks only English.

helyg "Whether or not it is intended as anti-Welsh, it can certainly feel like it from this side of Offa's Dyke."

That is certainly not the case. A lot of people, myself included, have stated that it's great that this young man is growing up in Welsh speaking household. FWIW I'm a linguist myself and very interested in language acquisition (although I speak no Welsh but I would make an effort if I lived there). By speaking some English with his father, this boy is surely going to enhance his childhood by having a dual culture.

I also totally agree with omnishambles post.

OP - you obviously don't think YABU so I don't see why you are posting here.

Your PIL seem to be rude about Wales and Welsh culture. And you are extremely defensive. But did the chicken or the egg come first?

Maybe they feel excluded by their son's complete immersion, an immersion so strong that they cannot talk to their grandson in their own language and their DIL expects them to learn a foreign language.

As other posters have said, we are not disputing your DH learning a foreign language fluently. We are disputing him talking to his (Welsh) wife in English but to his half-English son in Welsh! Surely you can see that this is not logical?

In your other thread you said he is speaking Welsh to his DS to improve his own language abilities. In my opinion this is selfish.

P.S. With no disrespect intended :

OP stop banging on about your Oxbridge PhD. I know it means you are intelligent, but it has no relevance to your ability to see the wood for the trees, or to put yourself in another person's shoes.

< also well-educated but emotionally conflicted at times >

Oh I can emphatically agree with that Jamie!

Yes, Omni's getting to the heart of the matter. It's what I was trying to get at when I said it's about the symbolic value of language. It's what language allows us to access and it's a very private (as opposed to public) thing. That's why my family would be hurt if my dcs didnt speak English. Actual communication by a two year old is secondary.

Sorry if this is a little incoherent. Breastfeeding and rushing off to fetch DC1.

I have to say, that as the Mum of a boy myself, I do not understand other women who don't seem to have enough empathy/imagination to be able to place themselves in the MIL's shoes, further down the line.

I acknowledge that the PILs don't sound like they've made much effort at all, but hopefully you don't end up with a DIL so willfully closed off to developing her children's relationship with her in-laws, yourself.

Jamie I think OP mentions her Oxbridge degree as a means of demonstrating that being brought up Welsh-speaking does not have any negative educational impact and that it is possible to be successful in the English language despite not using it - or being taught it - at home.

Dreams: that is the impression that I got. A lot of people seemed to be suggesting that not being able to speak English at the age of 2 would mean that her DS would struggle at university, she was showing that she had an Oxbridge degree despite not being able to speak English at 2.

I (and others) used the example of universities where subjects are taught in both Welsh and English. It's just that Aberystwyth graduates aren't generally deemed to be on a high horse.

Isn't this more a question of your relationship with your in-laws than a matter of language? Did I read it correctly that you don't want them to look after your DC because you think they won't understand each other?

We lived in Spain and asked our nanny to only speak Spanish with our DD (then aged one), even though we both only spoke English with DD. She coped fine, the nanny coped fine, DD learned Spanish from a native speaker, our nanny got very good at English.

Yes, posssibly your in-laws are being awkward and rude but give them a break - they probably feel excluded anyway if they live far away and don't share your child's language.

Your child will be bi-lingual anyway - does it really really matter if he picks up English now from his grandparents?

Yes, Dreams and helyg you are right. PhD was not being bandied about to suggest superiority

On reflection, that was a bit of a low blow. Sorry Dewin

Oh I don't know, I think she couldn't wait to get it in

But then I have completely demonised her in my head...

This thread is riling me. I think it's the feeling that only the mother's culture is important. I can see the PIL are making it easy to justify that belief. But reacting to their annoyingness isn't necessarily fair on the child.

5dollar - but if you consider your MIL to be unpleasant/rude/unhelpful/dismissive (need I go on?), then why would you want to place yourself in her shoes, just because you also have a DS? Place yourself in the shoes of a MIL who is the opposite of those things (which I'm sure we'd all prefer to be , yes, now that makes more sense

OMG this is a MIL thread in disguise, isn't it?