To be a bit [hmm] at Figleaves?

[mrsgordonfreeman]

I confess I used to work for them, but I was a bit annoyed at this.

Why have they not linked to the NHS breastfeeding site, but linked to Cow and Gate? I have sent them a very detailed email pointing this out which I know they will appreciate.

No judginess involved. I guess it's like the Tesco newborn nappy packaging.

oh no, I'm scared now. I've opened a can of worms haven't I? I even felt nervous when typing it. Should I ask MNHQ to delete my post?

haha noo its fine. Its just to do with Nestle promoting formula in third world countries when its clear that the water and equipment they'll use to make it will probably kill the babies. They will also start to use it, their milk will dry up and then they wont be able to get hold of anymore formula and the babies will die from malnutrition.
Its also the fact that they should be promoting breast feeding because for those babies its clearly best.

The Tesco Newborn nappy packaging featured a baby held by a woman with a terrifying rictus grin wielding a bottle.

What links like this and the Tesco packaging do is reflect the fact that bottle feeding is unconsciously considered the norm in this culture.

wooosh, the legislation governing formula means that it's all pretty much the same both in constitution and price. I think advertising of formula can mislead consumers into thinking they are different, e.g. that Aptamil is synthesised breastmilk instead of adapted cow's milk like all the others.

So whats wrong with bottle feeding then? it could have been expressed milk right?

Simple version of nestle thing is, they give out free samples of formula milk, say it's "better" for the babies, (including nestle workers dressed as doctors etc) and then stop the freebies. The mum's milk has dried up so they are forced to continue using formula, but they can't afford to buy it so they water it down more, or use cheaper dried cow's milk instead of formula, and the babies get very ill and die.

Also there is not always clean water available and there are not always instructions on the cans in the right language, which TBH is irrelevant if the family is illiterate anyway, which is also a fairly common scenario.

oh yes of course.. the freebies and doctors outfit... eurghh gives me the shudders

Where does this happen?

Volauvent, it happens mostly in African countries but has also happened in places like Indonesia, the Philippines and Singapore. Formula is promoted as the scientific choice, as an aspirational product. It is of course often a death sentence if a family cannot afford either the formula itself, enough fuel to boil water and sterilise feeding equipment.

We are lucky that we can consider formula a choice.

I'm not saying I'm dubious about this, but just have some questions as I've never heard about this before, if I may...?

Why do they do it if the families can't then afford to buy it after freebies have ran out?

Why is it not more high profile as an issue if babies are dying as a result?

Is anyone trying to do anything about it?

Because some families can afford it, and indeed a lot more families will scrimp and make sacrifices so they can afford it, as long as they think that it's the best stuff for their baby.

For a lot of reasons: it's just one of myriad problems in the developing world; formula companies get huffy when it's suggested they should not market their products to anyone they choose; women and babies often seem to be at the back of the queue politically...

Yes. Baby Milk Action for one.

I recommend The Politics of Breastfeeding by Gabrielle Walker if you are interested. It's just been revised and reprinted.

I've only got the 1993 copy of The Politics of Breastfeeding here to quote, but in the 60s and 70s in Sierra Leone, Nigeria, India, Lagos, South Africa, are the countries mentioned as examples.

I can't find the link now (I think it's on baby milk action?) but although certain practices have been stopped (apologies for using the present tense in my previous post) nestle and other countries continue to market formula in disadvantaged countries to this day, including marketing to health professionals.

OK found the other bit in TPOB: Countries mentioned where this was still happening in 1993 (hopefully someone will have the new edition - it's towards the end of chapter 8 I am looking at here) - Pakistan, free samples to maternity hospitals. (Not just nestle). Mexico - free samples to all mothers, including those who wished to breastfeed - mainly nestle. A mention of 12 countries which have been identified (not named in the book).

Thank you mrsgordonfreeman. Every day's a school day, although this particular lesson has made me a bit

Gabrielle Palmer is the author BTW, not Walker

It's both fascinating and horrifying. I was interested to see the new edition doesn't have the pictures in that the 1993 edition does - my copy of the new one is being lent to a friend at the moment so I have the old one from the library, the pictures are heartbreaking, especially the Indian twins

Found a copy of the photo online: Mother of Twins, Mushtaq Khan, UNICEF 1992

Quote from the book:

"The child with the bottle is a girl - she died the next day. Her twin brother was breastfed. This woman's mother-in-law told her she didn't have enough milk for both children, so she breastfed the boy. She certainly could have fed both, because suckling stimulates milk production. Even if she could not produce sufficient milk - unlikely as that would be - a better alternative would have been a wet-nurse. Ironically, this could have been the grandmother, a common practice before the advent of bottle-feeding."

even more now Bertie. My DH is actually from an African country where wet nursing is still fairly common. Interestingly (imo anyway!) they are not allowed to marry a person wet-nursed by their mother, they are considered a sibling. We also have a Jamaican (originally) friend in his late 20s who has a white "brother" wet-nursed by his mum in London, which always makes me

Ah, Palmer, sorry

It's sobering to realise that that mother in law's cack advice was responsible for the death of one of her grandchildren.

As I said before, we're damn lucky that we see bottlefeeding as a choice. We have electricity to run our sterilisers or boil our kettles, we have clean water on tap, we have enough money to buy the formula.

so what? so even underwear sites need to be pro BF now? a link on a bra website will hardly sway people anyway

Everyone must be pro BF.

Everyone.

I shall not rest until every breast has a baby attached, every bra has drop cups and every nipple is fountaining milk after a shower.

One website at a time.

Gordon that is so true - bottlefeeding is a true choice in this country, we are lucky (and for this reason I am anti trying to persuade/guilt trip mothers into breastfeeding in this country) - just puts things into perspective really. But I am also against promotion of formula just because I think that we do deserve to be able to make an informed choice and I think that if companies want to promote formula then they should prove that they are responsible enough to do so ethically. If they can't do that (which they have proved again and again) then they should not be allowed to promote it at all, even in a country where the risks are minimal. It's not like people don't know formula exists - if people want to use it then they can and should be able to do that. Just sad that greed can overrule compassion

Tracy Chapman got it right, just been listening to her song "Why":

Why do the babies starve when there's enough food to feed the world?
Why when there're so many of us are there people still alone?
Why are the missiles called peacekeepers when they're aimed to kill?
Why is a woman still not safe when she's in her home?

whooosh, I'm so sorry you had an awful time when you were pregnant
No one formula is universally best though, I think it's just a case of seeing what's best for that particular baby. After all, if one was definitely the best formula then it should be the ONLY formula available IMO.

The reason I thought everyone BF in the third world was because of being poor.

I knew about the Nestle boycott - didn't know all the reasons for it though! Since the training session where we discussed all this, we had a look at the twins picture, it was pretty hard not to cry.

I agree you shouldn't guilt trip mums about BFing, you have to strike the right balance. That's the problem with trying to radically change the culture back to a mostly-BF culture, it'd be great in the long term but it could be difficult in the short term for mums who have recently had FF babies or were PG and thinking of FF.

Well, I have to say that a truly informed choice is between the milk babies are supposed to have and milk that is not quite as good. No formula manufacturer is going to admit that. Of course formula is fine and there are lots of good reasons to use it, but ...

The 'pressure' isn't working. I am in an embarassingly small minority as someone who has bf her baby past six months. If it were as powerful as people say, surely I would not be alone in my baby group?

That's why I think a cultural change is needed, not hectoring women to do something without backing it up with consistent support. And that's why I do highlight things like this Figleaves link. It reflects a culture I would like to change.

well said Mrs G

I think the reason the pressure isn't working is that a lot of the time it's not the mum's fault. I don't mean that to sound patronising BTW! I mean it's a symptom of the culture isn't it? Or when a mum has wanted to BF but it hasn't worked out - like whooosh, or my own mum.

My stepdaughters for example. I'm the only person they've known who BFs, they were FF and every baby they know now (other than my 2) is FF - so, while I'd love it if they BF when they have babies, I wouldn't blame them if they didn't, because FF is normal to them.

There is sometimes an assumption that mums who choose FF are lazy and don't care etc. This is such a damaging assumption because a lot of the time it's just the obvious choice as that's what they've seen growing up.

oops waffled on somewhat didn't I

Yes, MMM. I often think the right advice at the right time would do wonders.

We have lost so much knowledge that used to be intuitive because breastfeeding was commonplace. Like knowing that a newborn who feeds constantly is behaving completely normally and that this isn't a sign of having no milk... so many women I know stopped breastfeeding because of this and are upset that they did not know that this was normal until it was too late.

And the least said about over zealous health visitors who weigh newborns every 5 minutes, the better.

After reading The Politics of Breastfeeding we have decided to boycott Nestle as well. Sob, no more Milo.

But they knew babies would die, they knew it and they just didn't care because they could make money.

FF is a pretty safe choice if you live in a rich country but it is russian roulette if you don't.