AIBU to want more from the school system academically than getting children 'where they need to get to'?

[Cortina]

It seems to me that there is no concept in the state system that the child is the client with an entitlement to an education that will enable them to 'be the best that they can be'.

Rather the client is the state and this means that all curricula are geared towards a common set of standards too demanding for some and too easy for others.

I've been reading a lot recently that seems to chime with the above.

A good teacher can work within the system to ensure that children work at their own pace and make steady progress. It's got to be tough though with large class sizes and low level disruption (in our experience).

I keep hearing that I should be reassured my children will get to where 'they need to get to'. They will meet the average goal for the end of the key stages so not to worry and all is fine and dandy. Of course the teachers would like them to do better than this but are reluctant to take steps that would increase the likelihood of this happening IME (not through negligence but by their belief their way is the safest way.) We, the parents, try to do that at home ourselves it seems.

Thing is, I want them to do better than reach an expected target, I want them to absolutely fly, I want any latent talent to be discovered, I want them to be the absolute best that they can be. It is as if some teachers have forgotten the bigger picture? Or are too scared of negative consequences of stretching children? The danger is many children have a habit of delivering exactly what is expected of them, mine certainly seem to.

Is it too much to expect this to happen at a state school, should I be grateful with average academic results going forward? Do teachers ever under estimate children? In some cases they might not realise what they are capable of and perhaps under estimate their potential for fear of putting them off learning or lowering their self esteem if things go wrong? I believe children should be stretched, do I have this all wrong? (I read over in the primary section about this sort of thing with reading etc and children demonstrating they are capable of much more at home etc.)

I hate the thought that continuous assessment means that a child can be marked down if they do surprisingly well at Maths or English (KS1). I hate the thought a teacher has the power to 'decide' whether or not a child is below average, average, or above average and potentially the power to make an ability label stick. Of course this shouldn't happen because of continuous assessment etc, most teachers are good and dedicated I am sure, but this doesn't mean to say that there are not flaws in the system?

Do any teachers find the NC limiting? Is there a way to teach creatively around it in a state school without being reprimanded? I am beginning to wonder. I know that many here say they use it as a rough guide which is very encouraging. Is it wrong to want your child to be the best that they can be?

Not forgetting the children in care who have no parental input- or are looked after by carers or staff that do not have the insight into that child that comes with knowing them for a long time.

violethill - the kind of difference of opinion that you describe is precisely why I think that pooling of opinions as a principle in partnership is the best (if imperfect) way forward. Teachers (and there will be several of them in secondary school) and parents (however many of them, biological, step, whatever) may all have different viewpoints because that is life - our opinions vary. There is absolutely no guarantee that any single person is going to be right, and of course the child's desires are of paramount importance.

We were very taken aback after what had been an entirely pleasant meeting with DD's class teacher earlier in the year - we had listened to her opinions with great interest, and had completely agreed with some and were surprised by others, all of which is completely normal. At the very end of the meeting, by way of goodbye, she suddently turned to DP and said "Well of course, I see a lot of her than you do. I would know more than you - I see her for twenty hours a week."

DP sees way more of DD than that - even before factoring in the fact that he sees her individually or within the family, rather than as one child in a group of 30 in a particular structured setting, and that there are plenty of weeks in the year when he and she are on holiday together and practically never leave one another's company.

And the trouble was, with that one throwaway remark with the teacher believing so strongly that her own untested opinion was fact, all credibility for the points which she had raised about DD that surprised was lost.

a lot more of her

Ever since my French DP told me a teacher broke his nose with a book for getting a spelling wrong, I have had little faith in the French education system- tell me it's improved since then!

I don't think that would pass muster these days!

It's very different to the UK system - better in some ways (basics are drilled in), worse in others (no space for original thought).

Teachers don't want parents interfering being interested in their DCs' education, that's for sure!

Jumping back a bit'
but Katy's experience of giving the girl individual attention on her classics course just isn't possible when teaching 34, 7yr olds on your own without TA help. I always try to stretch my more able and support those who need it. But, realistically, although I differentiate fully, it is inevitable that every child will not reach their absolute potential every day.

I give each group one day a week focused. So, within the group I can push each child to their full potential in that particular lesson. The set work on the other days should stretch them but it would be ridiculous to suggest that they are each reaching their potential 100% evcery day rather that the more likely 80-85%. Anything else is impossible with just one adult and 34 children, 13 of whom are on the SEN register (7 for behavioural issues).

To expect this in a a state school would require a serious amount of funding which would result in higher taxes.

Incidently, my children are at an excellent independent school in which they are flourishing. I chose it for the breadth it offered much more than the depth of academic teaching. However, I would be naive to ever assume that my kids are reaching their absolute potential every day. IMVHO, this is impossible within any school system. They get far more of this at home, with us on holiday and day trips etc.

I actually believe that part of their education is learning that life will not pander to their absolute whim all the time. And that education is so much more than just school.

My redquattro over a fortnight I teach just under 400 different students.

But you are right you can't do it with every child every day. But within the secondary system every child deserves this from at least one of their teachers in a year.

Bonsoir Tue 01-Jun-10 08:56:09
"cory - surely this is one of the problems about making students pay for their education?"

Absolutely, and you won't find a lecturer who is in favour of this system.

myredquattro - that was a very interesting and honest post. Thank you.

Yes, but not all at once.

During every 1hour lesson I teach, I have 34 children all on my own. A great number of whom cannot read/write or do very much independently. In a secondary setting you can, more often than not, have the majority of your class getting on with something whilst you focus in on one child/group. That really isn't possible in a Y3 class with so many children still at such a very basic level where they cannot transfer the date from the board onto their books.

And before anyone asks why they are still on that level I will add that our value added scores are very high. We often have them turning up for Reception still in nappies and in pushchairs (NT children). The majority cannot use a knife and fork, have never painted, baked, been read to etc.

Part of my point about education being so much more than school.

BTW, I'm certainly not suggesting secondary colleagues have it easy. It all evens out I'm sure but in terms of class sizes, we have the bum deal.

No I agree not every lesson but it is a lot of balls to juggle at once. Most of my classes are 30 and like you I rarely have any support in my lessons.

I would not want to be a primary teacher for all the tea in china, I think your job is much harder, or perhaps less suited to me.

I agree totally that education is about much more than school, I see myself as dd primary educator, perhaps because her school is quite useless.

Thank you, Bonsoir.
There is no point in pretending the system is perfect. However, I wholeheartedly disagree that at a profession we strive for the average. Though even in a class of very able students there will still be a mathematical average and there's nothing wrong with that. Most teachers want their students to reach their potential. Logistics sometimes mean that 'personal potential' becomes 'potential within a school system'.

If a child leaves me at the end of the year having moved on significantly both academically and socially then I'm happy.

BTW, I should point out that I'm an AST (leading primary maths teacher) so have been judged by others to be doing something right!

I have also taught a class of 18 with a f/t TA in a very affluent area. A totally different job IMO.
But then that just highlights the varying state provision across the state sector.

IME schools don't teach to the average. That is having a DS 5.9 in year 1 still struggling with the writing side of literacy and won't be helped because he's a boy and a young one

I do agree they aren't stretched where they can be as DS also has a good reading ability but school give him books under his reading capabilities as his literacy is behind.

For the teachers out there he's reading orange read write inc (finished fiction and read 3 non-fiction) his scheme level and he gets 2 ORT books usually stage 2/3 sometimes the odd 4. He reads these (ORT) with no probs but when I ask for something more challenging they just send an easier one home

Today he read me the book snow bears with no probs and it does make me cross I have to give him appropriate material at home to challenge him and where he needs help he won't get it.

I don't blame teachers - I'm training to be one but I think that it's because his reading is fine so they just let him coast.

OP unlike you I don't want him to fly just have his strentghs as well as his weaknesses recognised and encouraged.

OP on the whole YANBU.

Ah - you may be able to give me some advice .

My DD is going to go through the French system, which means that she has been in classes of 30 in école maternelle, with a single French class teacher, for the past two years, and will be in classes of 25-ish right through primary, starting from September.

Even though there is, unusually, some streaming at her school, I still tend to believe that in order for DD to be reaching her potential, in particular in French, which is the weaker of her two languages, she really needs quite a bit of outside back-up (which will mean a tutor). What do you think?

Was the advice bit advice from me???

If yes I'd personally use the internet!! Theres always websites where she can read and write in french (french websites obviously!)

I play a lot of games eg matching pairs with flashcards where he has to read the word to win the pair. If he can write a sentance at the end using one of the words then he gets a sticker. Fun, informative and necessary!!

I would perhaps wait a year to get a tutor as she may catch up naturally.

I would agree with mumbar and wait a year or so until you have a clearer picture of where her needs lie (if indeed she does need anything extra). Her French may come on tremendously at school and become one of her strongest subjects.

Thank both of you - my question was to littleredquattro initially, but all opinions welcome.