AIBU to want more from the school system academically than getting children 'where they need to get to'?

[Cortina]

It seems to me that there is no concept in the state system that the child is the client with an entitlement to an education that will enable them to 'be the best that they can be'.

Rather the client is the state and this means that all curricula are geared towards a common set of standards too demanding for some and too easy for others.

I've been reading a lot recently that seems to chime with the above.

A good teacher can work within the system to ensure that children work at their own pace and make steady progress. It's got to be tough though with large class sizes and low level disruption (in our experience).

I keep hearing that I should be reassured my children will get to where 'they need to get to'. They will meet the average goal for the end of the key stages so not to worry and all is fine and dandy. Of course the teachers would like them to do better than this but are reluctant to take steps that would increase the likelihood of this happening IME (not through negligence but by their belief their way is the safest way.) We, the parents, try to do that at home ourselves it seems.

Thing is, I want them to do better than reach an expected target, I want them to absolutely fly, I want any latent talent to be discovered, I want them to be the absolute best that they can be. It is as if some teachers have forgotten the bigger picture? Or are too scared of negative consequences of stretching children? The danger is many children have a habit of delivering exactly what is expected of them, mine certainly seem to.

Is it too much to expect this to happen at a state school, should I be grateful with average academic results going forward? Do teachers ever under estimate children? In some cases they might not realise what they are capable of and perhaps under estimate their potential for fear of putting them off learning or lowering their self esteem if things go wrong? I believe children should be stretched, do I have this all wrong? (I read over in the primary section about this sort of thing with reading etc and children demonstrating they are capable of much more at home etc.)

I hate the thought that continuous assessment means that a child can be marked down if they do surprisingly well at Maths or English (KS1). I hate the thought a teacher has the power to 'decide' whether or not a child is below average, average, or above average and potentially the power to make an ability label stick. Of course this shouldn't happen because of continuous assessment etc, most teachers are good and dedicated I am sure, but this doesn't mean to say that there are not flaws in the system?

Do any teachers find the NC limiting? Is there a way to teach creatively around it in a state school without being reprimanded? I am beginning to wonder. I know that many here say they use it as a rough guide which is very encouraging. Is it wrong to want your child to be the best that they can be?

Cortina that is why I teach, there is no greater gift as a teacher than watching a pupils learn to love a subject that you yourself love. It does not happen for every pupil in your class, ( I teach secondary) as my subject is not for everyone. Providing such opportunities is a real focus for my school.

I've always been of the opinion it's the sheer numbers that are the problem, my cousin is a headmistress in a lovely little country primary school and I genuinely believe she sets out every day to do the best for every child in that school but how can she with 420 to basically churn through the system.

I totally agree, manatomany, in my top set year 9 I have 30 students. It almost kills me giving them the attetion they need and knowing that you could do much more. But the advantages of secondary teaching is that you can have the same class for years, meaning that even in a larger class you can give more focused attention. Still not enough but much more than is being suggested on this thread.

My dd is in a class of 35 in primary, it was 37 but 2 have left with disgust.

That must be a wonderful feeling, katycarr. I wish I could contact certain teachers who believed in me and encouraged me. I'd love to let them know how they influenced my life going forward and how they inspired me.

I feel the same about those teachers who inspired me Cortina.

I was the kid from the rough family, who missed a lot of school as I had to work for the family business. I was actually remarkably clever and had a huge passion for learning. Some teachers spotted this and put in a huge amount of time and care. My career allows me to pay back into the system what I took out.

Interestingly, most people seem to think that academic achievement is all that matters from education. As a product of a state education, what's struck me the most when meeting people who went to public schools is the focus on non-academic achievements as well.

The amount of sport expected, the music and drama focus - the debating classes and the general view that producing a 'well rounded' person rather than just one with qualifications is really surprising to me.

I can't afford private, and really hope outside classes/clubs will make up for it. It's a pity that we treat 'schooling' as 'getting qualifications to get good jobs' as if that's all that matters.

I think, as parents, that it is crucial to view school as one tool among many that will help us to bring up our children and attain the goals that we set for them, in accordance both with our personal values and expectations and with our children's aptitudes and talents. There is so much more to education that school - never forget it!

FakePlasticTrees - I agree with your post - the difference between state and private lies very much in the breadth as well as the depth of education.

I agree fakeplastic, the things that disappoint me the most about dd's school are the lack of extra curricular activities. One of the things that attracted me to the school I teach in is the wealth of such opportunities from taking part in an opera, world travel, debating, sailing and voluntary work.

I try not to overload DD (5.7) with extra-curricular activities during term time - this year she has done a weekly art class (1h15), she has weekly tutoring in English literacy (1h) and of course she lives in a bilingual home and goes to a bilingual school, which is a huge extra burden as of itself. She does mathsfactor.com too, which she loves.

However, during the holidays she has does swimming lessons, gym lessons, ski-ing lesson, tennis lessons plus lots of cycling, and I am busy setting up tennis/swimming/gym/arts & crafts courses and private lessons for the very long summer holidays too. Plus she will spend time in England speaking English. I think of the holidays as the time when we choose what she learns.

Obviously we do loads of unstructured learning too!

I really enjoyed my school years but was (and still am fairly outspoken. In my GCSE years, I had an english teacher who took a real dislike to me. She told my parents that I'd be lucky to get a E for my GCSE english grade, and always gave me bad grades. I didn't take this well, and can tell you honestly, I put little or no effort into her classes for the rest of the year. I focussed on my other subjects as I was keen to get C's or above for all my exams.

I actually got 2 B's for english and still wonder, if with a bit of encouragement, i could of really excelled.

I have to say that the vast majority of my teachers were great but I still think how awful she was!

I find a lot of what is on here offensive too. I teach Drama and Performing Arts in a fairly low-achieving state secondary. We are in a rural area, and many students are from disadvantaged backgrounds. I have never been in any doubt that my role is to ensure that all students do as well as they possibly can, and happily go out of my way to make sure that I do that. I have worked in three very different schools over the last 12 years, and have never ever taught to the "lowest common denominator" or been happy for students to achieve C grades when they should be getting A*s.

I do not think that children in schools should be seen as the "client". I think that removes responsibility for their learning from them, and it is incredibly important that children do take responsibility for their learning. The relationship must be one of "partners" rather than "client".

I also think that home is a massive part of it and agree with the poster who said that school should only be seen as one element in a child's education.

My DTDs start school in September. Whilst we could afford it, I never considered private school. We are fortunate in that they got places in our first choice primary, but we had always intended to spend our weekends and holidays adding to their education ourselves by broadening their experiences and knowledge in as many ways as possible. I feel that this is my role as a parent. Sure, we could pay for them to go to a private school - we live in a town with a number of very well-regarded independent schools, and not bother to take time to do the extra stuff with them ourselves, but actually we get an enormous amount of pleasure out of helping them to learn and understand.

I get the overwhelming sense from a lot of earlier posts on this thread that many posters have no real idea or experience of how state education works.

OP - if you want your children to be seen as "clients", then there is no point sending them to state school, IMO. I actually find the idea of children as "clients" quite vulgar.

"I do not think that children in schools should be seen as the "client". I think that removes responsibility for their learning from them, and it is incredibly important that children do take responsibility for their learning. The relationship must be one of "partners" rather than "client"."

I agree - but surely, the partners are parents, their child and their school/teacher/extra-curricular teacher? It's three way shared responsibility IMO, at least when they are at primary (and probably beyond for a while).

Yes Bonsoir, I completely agree. It does have to be a three-way partnership. That's definitely the best way to achieve success. I just hate the idea of child as "client". It undermines the efforts of teachers, and puts all responsibility for a student's achievements in their lap.

And when I say "their lap", I mean the teachers.

Sure, I agree. Parents and their children have lots of responsibility for ensuring that children get the most out of a teacher's efforts.

Parents who use private education do not "not bother to take time to do the extra stuff with them ourselves"
If anything when you pay you make damn sure they are getting the best out of school because to do otherwise would be wasting £20,000 a year.

MintHumbug "I wish they did more of these things at state school", well ok, but when? Also depends on the age group as to the appropriate amount of numeracy/ literacy etc versus the other things. We (sorry, should have started by saying I teach 11-18 in a private school (but was in state for 6 years)) seems to be told every other week that we should be teaching more of every subject + citizenship, financial awareness, "happiness" (thank you Anthony Seldon) and so on. I don't think this thread is teacher bashing as such as "the system" as it stands has not been created by teachers and they are probably more frustrated than anyone else about it but OP, I think needs to appreciate the basic point that 1:30 ratio simply cannot deliver what she admits is an idealistic view of what can be achieved. Schools have a limited role but at best can introduce ideas that fire imagination that the student then goes on to develop individually with help from all those around them.

I know I am going against the grain by saying this, but I have one child in state Primary and one child in state Secondary, and I am very happy with the education they are getting at school.

My son is definitely being stretched at Secondary school. And not just in academic subjects - music, art, and technology as well.

My daughter's primary school teacher is wonderful and really cares about the kids. She does far more than just her job.

My only concerns would be that in Primary the curriculum is too narrow because of SATs. DS has struggled in History in Year 7 and I feel that the lack of work on skills for History in Primary school contributed to that.

I also feel that there is inadequate opportunities for drama and dance at secondary school, which will be a huge shame for DD.

But I do not recognise the picture painted by the OP at all.

MillyR - don't you think, though, that History and Geography are two subject areas where parents can do absolutely masses with their children? Just as Physics and Chemistry are really hard to do as family, and the structure of school is vital to make any headway at all in those subjects, History and Geography are really quite accessible. There are so many days out, museums, stately homes, historical towns and villages, trips abroad, novels, films, factual books just waiting to be enjoyed with your DC.

Whatever you do, folks, please don't feed the client mentality to your children! EvilTwins is right.

As a university lecture, I am constantly struggling with this new attitude: "I am the client so it is your job to keep me satisfied, ie. make sure I get a First without ever having to do anything that is boring or too hard for me."

cory - surely this is one of the problems about making students pay for their education?

Not that I am totally against paying for HE.