.. to think private primary schools offer a bad deal to families?

[kif]

This is really confusing me - and I don;t want to hurt feeling in RL by raising this with the people I know.

Private schools at primary level: by and large they offer a bit of a rubbish deal, don't they?

I'm just completely bemused why people persevere with them.

I hear about:

• zero to no outside space (busses to local parks) - compared to fab imaginative playgrounds at local state schools. Presumably it's required by law of a state school, but not of a private school.

• Substantial commutes to school. Who needs the extra stress? What's nicer than walking to school breathing fresh air?

• No school dinners in some cases - I find this pretty shocking tbh. Good communal eating is so important.

• Heavy homework demands on top of a long school day - leading to stress between parents and kids as they try to achieve it

and the complete killer:

• 'We'd love another baby, but we couldn't afford another set of school fees' .

I didn't send my kids to a private primary but I think the general idea is that smaller class sizes makes up for any negatives and, if you feel that way, the children are mixing with "nice" children.

They are sometimes the passport to get into the secondary school that is attached without too much competition. For example, one son went to a private selective secondary school. There were 100 places in each year but fifty were already taken by those coming up from the Prep. Apparently the ex prep school kids were known as the thickies.

I'm not saying that I agree with any of this, just that it may be why people send their children to the prep school.

Yes , I agree , however they do send them there by choice so little sympathy if they think there are problems.

Also the long holidays ! Great if you can go off on hols out of peak time but inmagine the cost of childcare if working.

Where we live the primary school are very good but still alot go to private primaries .

Secondary schools a different kettle of fish

Kif, I'm not sure which area you are speaking about but I think your comments are a vast generalisation. My cd do not go to private school btw, but in our local area, all the private schools have loads of outside space and good playgrounds (our local Catholic private primary is on a 100 acre site with its own wood) whereas many of the state primaries have nowhere near that kind of space. DS2 goes to a 5-yr old primary which has a nice field and playground but the PTA had to pay for shading, a gazebo and games markings on the yard i.e. anything out of the ordinary was not funded.

The fact that parents choose to do a substantial commute to the school is not the fault of the school, is it? The school is located wherever it is, parents make the choice to travel there. Just because you go to a state school doesn't mean you get to walk there, as many people in towns and cities taking two buses to get to their state primary will testify!

I have no idea about school dinners in private primary but presumably the children have to eat something so they will be eating their packed lunches communally anyway, won't they? I don't think not having school dinners is a deal-breaker really, the take-up in our school is quote low, the majority of children take packed lunch. Does that make us deficient in some way?

Heavy homework is again up to the parents and children to manage, many people send their children to private school specifically because they think the day at state primary is not challenging enough for their child.

You come across as having a huge chip on your shoulder about private education tbh and some rather odd ideas about the set-up in most private primaries. Good luck to you if your dc attend a fab primary with good results, little homework, wonderful outside space and tasty school dinners, which you can walk to in the fresh air. Just be aware that is not the reality for many people!

Think it depends on the individual private primary... some are lovely, caring environments with much smaller class sizes, extra support and earlier for SEN and better at stretching higher end of ability range so don't start acting up and being troublesome. Others are exam factories and hot houses for secondary public schools. Can give examples in my stamping ground of central/n london of both. FWIW I don't think the exam factories are worth the money - if you're THAT bothered about 11+, find a decent state, top up with tuition and spend the money you've saved on trips to interesting places.

What I really don't get is people sending kids to junior versions of the big secondary schools at 4+ and just keeping them there... EIGHTEEN YEARS in the same institution??? I can see how that might be good for the child academically, and easier and less stressful for the parents, but IME can inhibit emotional growth because the kid doesn't experience a "fresh start" at any point. Appreciate that moving them regularly isn't great, but observed from own experience that friends and sisters who moved once or twice (at 77/11 or 16) developed more maturity and were better able to adjust to adult world as a result.

We are seriously looking at a private primary for our DD. There are many reasons we are considering this:

• We are not guaranteed entry into our excellent highly oversubscribed local catchment school and some of the other state schools reasonably close we would not send DD to. There are 5 private schools which are as close or closer than some of the state schools we may be 'stuck' with. We are not interested in the stress of the whole school applications process and possibility of long appeals etc.

• If we move we can have continuity in our childs education.

• The private school we are considering has an excellent extra curricular programme for children. It also has good breakfast and after school clubs.

• The school fees for a year are cheaper than childcare (childminder) fees for a year.

• They do have a small outside space right at the school but they have full access to huge private playing fields a 10min walk away

• They have class sizes of no more than 15 children per class

• They do offer school lunches (although I am not bothered about this being Canadian and not having this in our schools)

• The school offers a range of 'extras' included like swimming and ballet for gym. A second and third language. Children are able to learn to play instruments from an early age.

These are some of the many reasons why a private school is a HUGE consideration for us.

The only one of those which applies to the school DD will be going to is the commute. However, it is an easy cycle for me and on my way to work unlike the state primary which is utterly shite with a serious bullying problem and a 10 minute car journey in the wrong direction.

IHeartKittensandWine - I agree that staying in the same school from 4 (or even 2 1/2, if there is nursery attached to the school) to 18 is a very bad preparation for modern life!

we are now looking into private primary for our children starting sept 2011. ds1 is in yr1 and ds2 is in reception. ds1 has dyspraxia and i dont feel the school are dealing with it very well, they say all the right things but dont back it up with alot.

the smaller class sizes appeal, this would benfit my ds1 hugely, he would not get so 'lost' in the numbers.

we are moving and will be close to a good private primary and a large state primary. not sure which way we will go yet.

I do feel you are generalising here. Yes there are some private schools that do not have great facilities but those are the ones I wouldnt send my DC to.

We had to go private because our DS didnt get a place at the primary school on our doorstep and was offered a rubbish school 2 miles away.

At the last minute we found an excellent school with 35 acres of land, escellent facilities and small class sizes of 17.

Hence the reason we went private not because we chose too but because we had no choice! Having said that I'm glad it happened this way as DS is thriving here and DD will be joining in Sept. Funnily enough she got a place at the local state school we originally wanted because they now have a 2 class intake!

Why do people persevere with them? Er, presumably because they think it is worth it. You must have some pretty unusual private schools near you so I can understand your bemusement if that is the case but what you describe bears absolutely no resemblance to the school I chose for DS (well, apart from the long drive. I agree that is a PITA).

School fees v extra children is a perfectly valid choice if that's how they feel. Better than, "I really have no money at all but I think I'll have another many kids."

If we had access to a fab state school we would have been happy but we did not so we swallowed hard and made what we beleive to be the best choice for DS.

People aren't stupid, especially when it comes to committing to vast sums of money for their's children's education, and if some parents choose to pay for private schools it is because they believe that the school they choose will offer their child something that their local state school will not.

kif, it sounds like the private primaries near you don't have great facilities or be the best choice for you, but it's certainly not true of all of them for all people.

DD (7) is moving to a private primary in September which is a shorter walk from home than her state school, has just as much outdoor space and playground equipment on-site, and they also spend one or two afternoons a week at the school playing grounds/woodland a short bus ride away. School lunches are cooked from scratch on the premises (unlike the frozen/reheated stuff they serve at her current school). I don't know about the homework yet, but friends with older DCs at the same school haven't complained of a heavy workload.

Add to that smaller classes better able to work at the pace of individual children (she's in a huge mixed age class and seriously bored at the moment) and a broader curriculum with lots of fun stuff because they are not tied to the national curriculum and Sats, and I think that for us, private is definitely better. Fees are the only downside...

There are 9 children in DS's Yr1 class, a teacher and a TA, that ratio alone would make up for a bunch of inconveniences, but we don't have any. I view the using of local parks for sport/play stuff as a bonus.

I'm generalising off a sample of 3 private schools vs 1 state school, I accept.

I'm in a very dense urban area - so no schools have 'vast' spaces, but the state ones seem to all have an adequate playground, whereas one of the private schools in particular is quite new, and seems to really feel the strain of the price of land/property round here. Not their 'fault' (nor is the commute) - but not exactly a premium proposition for the kids either.

The one that really bugs me is the homework. It's so joyless to be doing reams and reams of compulsory work every evening. I was anxious about my Dd falling behind, but I've been pleasantly surprised how much 'educational play' she's naturally inclined to do (writing letters to friends, cooking, gardening etc etc.). If I chose to pay for a school, I'd expect them to offer my child more free-wheeling montessori style structured self directed learning. What I observe is schools feeling heavy pressure from parents to demonstrate 'money's worth' by training up the kids like showponies.

State secondaries are abysmal round here. The 'progression' argument (i.e. 11+ coaching as standard) was the reason why one of my friends went private. I've no idea what we'll do then.

My vote always goes for what is best for my Dd - and I completely understand when people have chosen to move a child who for whatever reason was 'getting lost' in a rough and tumble state school.

Our school isn't universally considered lovely - the results are poor and my mum was at the state of the building. But after earlier worries, I've been pleasantly surprised at my Dds ability to 'take the best' of what the school offer, and just enjoy learning and being part of the school and local community. What the school does have, is a strong head and a very stable teaching group - not really obvious from the outside, but makes all the difference in terms of the 'opportunities for supported growth' they offer. I'm the pushiest of mothers, but I don't envy the overt pressure and drama that seems to be the experience of the paid for educations some of her chums are getting.

Perhaps I'm in a minority in seeing small classes as a double edged sword. It strikes me that peer pressure must feel worse if there are fewer potential play mates to choose from.

I do know that people must have their reasons - but like I said, I'm bemused to observe the contortions people go through to achieve it.

Oddly enough Kif I chose private education for the opposite of the reasons you mention.

My local state schools have a small concrete playground with no other outdoor space.

They pile the homework on from a very early age, totally squeezing creativity out of the curriculum especially during SATS year (interestingly they are one of only a handful of schools in my LEA (the other being in special measures so needing the data) that have not boycotted the SATS this year.

The private school the children go to have have larger class sizes than most 20 in pre-prep and 24 in prep but they have a caring, creative ethos and state that extra curricular should be a normal part of the curriculum and just as valuable. They do achieve very good academic results but in a nurturing non pushy way.

They have fields, adventure playground for the reception class, a cretive curriculum and also get to use the excellent facilities of the neighbouring senior school.

The 9 of them get on just fine, DS gets 2 pages of homework each day, plus a reading book (which isn't viewed as homework by us, but part of bedtime, i.e he reads to me and then I read to him), on weekends he gets ICT homework (which is usually having a look at a website, once again no exactly a hardship).

His homework takes him 10 minutes max, I think it is more about getting into the practice of doing it rather than the homework itself having any value.

I don't know about the other stuff, we are leaving in the summer so not worried about SATS etc.

I know of a few private schools that lack the provisions you mention Kif
Basically, I think it's all a big con
But then it takes a certain kind of parent to believe that their children will be harmed if they mix with the hoi polloi, so if they are stupid enough to pay the money and kid themselves that by doing so their children are receiving a superior primary school experience then leave them to it

These threads always kick off smallwhitecat someone has to fire the opening shot.

Would you apply the same arguments to those parents who choose to home educate then Mrsuffalo?

We chose INDPENDENT education, free from state interference to as much extent as possible.

Our alternative choice was HE.