To think Oppositional Defiant Disorder is taking it a step to far?

[noopska]

Stop me if I'm ignorant of past posting or discusions on this.

But I recently read about Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD) and it just seems a bit of a joke, most people dont believe it exists (as a real 'term') when I tell them!

So ADHD, Autism yes but ODD?

The symptoms are below:

Frequent and/or extreme temper tantrums
Tendency to be easily annoyed by others
Blatant refusal to comply with household or school rules
Takes argumentative stance with adults
Rude, uncooperative and confrontational attitude
Use of mean-spirited language when upset
Deliberate attempts to upset and annoy others
Frequent bursts of anger or resentful attitude
Tendency to place blame on others
Outward and belligerent defiance
Revengeful attitude

Try many teenagers and toddlers that you might know!

thanks for being reasonable TM1, goodnight

(thanks MN, I come home very wired from working with challenging kids on weds all my friends are in bed can't phone them up - good to have some (very intelligent i must say) banter with some people i will never meet!)

I am not a pfsa

leave my job alone - please

i'm sure there are soem great pfsas and some great parent partnership workers out there.

I don't see myself as ill educated just not great at typing and up for a bit of discussion

noopska He's nearly 2 1/2 he's dc 3 of 4. I don't class his current behaviour normal, but i'm hoping its not long term iyswim.

TM He's been breatholding since he was 11 months, Its outward rather than the apparantly more common inward. All the info I've been able to find suggests that inward breathholding is something a child does for attention and outward there is a 50/50 opinion split on cause. The panic on his face as he claws at his tongue desperatly trying to draw a breath before he goes blue and passes out says to me that its something happening to him rather than something he's in control of iyswim? We ignored it for a good 6 months and it stopped only when he stopped teething for a while, pain related? Its now back along with another tooth. There a suggestion that it may be a vaso vagel(sp?) type reaction on the throat to screaming hard ( so effectively toddler screams hard out and throat closes )

If you have any info on outward b/holding or if anyone else has to deal with this I'd love any info. tbh feeling pretty alone with this.

i think suggesting i might cause harm to children and their familes is a bit strong arsenic - are you the arsenic in my jam tart?

Thats ok noopska, just remember to ask if you are not sure. dont give up on it, i am sure your work will be appreciated one day and you will get to where you want to be. night night

hope you get some help and support for this KAQ

Kaq can you get help from the gp or hv?

KAQ sorry but I have no personal experience of breath holding but what i have heard about it sounds terrifying

noopska you are not TM2, I am.

Where you been? Are you feeling better?

If you can make an opening statement like the one you did... And you work with children, helping their families and with statementing etc...
You change what you say o. Here from your op and back peddle... Saying it good to be learning more ... Etc

then you are ill educated IMO... And thank the stars your not helping me or my family.

Hi HE i feel a little better thanks, or maybe even more after that snog

kaq google a search for outward breath holding in a toddler. i was reading something on findarticles.com about it, it may be inciteful give it a read, and also find out if there are any support groups to help you, again gp or hv should have that info.

LOL! Gp looks terrified if I go in with ds because he can be set off by the slightest thing if he's having a "twitchy" day. They just tell me I'm coping v well with 4 kids under 6 and to carry on and see how we go. They have checked his heart to see if a defect could be causing the breath holds, but all seems well. They've said he should ( hopefully ) grow out of it by the time he's 4 and if not they will refer him then.

As for the HV I actually invited her to my house ( ) Thats something i've never done before! She gave me lots of sound advice and mainly reassured me that the disiplin methods I was using were appropriate etc ( was starting to feel like I was losing perspective), but she's never witnessed an incident so I don't think she really "gets" how extreme he can be. She does run a toddler group tho so I may have to attend on twitchy day

Do any of you clever ladies know anything about hypogliceamia (sp?) in children, because I'm noticing with him a tendancy to be much worse at any time he would get a sugar drop....giving him dried fruit / biscuit can totally change his mood.

TM - good to hear it!

Sorry noopska but i agree with TACC, you did apologise for "joking" about something that's not actually funny,

You stated you'd spent the day "shouting" at children and then proceed to give advice on handling certain behaviours?

So anyway, YABU.

TM1, tbh I've googled loads on OB/holding admittedly not for a while so it may help to rummage some more.

Sorry about the hijack

HE, Thanks I know I probably sound pathetic but it scares the living shit out of me.

Oh the HV is going to try to get me a free resuss course because mines out of date and I'm doing a 0 - 4s parenting course to try to help him/ us too.

Then I can't sleep and come on here and talk crap half the night

Oh, that sounds tough KAQ... most of the breath holders I know are very much 'monster tantrum/ breath-hold/ pass out' type rather than fighting it... think I might know a mum who went through something similar - the dc did outgrow, and in the end I think the paed decided it was sort of a panic attack response to being out of control, but it was a while ago and I suspect things have moved on. Having to resuscitate sounds scary...

noopska - not at all. There are many many lovely people who have worked with my daughter (she has cerebral palsy lol, not the DS with/ without ODD/ADHD/ASD) - some of them have studied for years to be able to help her, and some were cleaners until last week (well, ok, only one of them was ). To work with children with disabilities/ additional needs all you need is the desire to learn, and to want to help them reach their potential. What alarmed me was that you said you were employed to help parents with the statementing process, and followed that up by confessing to knowing nothing about it.

It's a sore point with many parents of kids with difficulties. If (as a parent) you are intelligent enough to read up on the policies, and to present a cogent and informed case, it is likely that eventually your child will get support. (You might spend a few years and a good whack on private reports and tribunal, but the odds are in your favour). A child with a parent/ carer who for whatever reason is unable to advocate for their child at that level is likely to receive very little. Some parent partnerships are apparently very good. Some sit in the pocket of the LA and play the mushroom game convincingly.

If you are working directly with SN children (in an educational context or wherever) then a working knowledge of statementing will of course be beneficial, and I applaud your efforts to acquire it. But you did get my back up with taking the piss out of the existence of an ODD dx in your OP. Maybe not mention your scepticism to any parents in RL, eh?

Okay i dont know to much kaq except you give them carbohydrates to eat before bed, and wake them and feed them again after the normal duration of sleep. and may need extra nutrition in the day. maybe you could also ask over on sn they might be able to help aswell

what advice did I give? ...I just said that was what was the treatment suggested
for ODD - I want undermining it - i just thought they were generally useful parenting strategies

I dont shout all day but I did have to raise my voice to break up two kids were determined to fight each other

I know I am good at my job - dont judge me even if my OP and my late night ramblings make me appear ill-educated

this is not about me but about a 'disorder' that not many people know about in my experience

HE i am afraid its bedtime for me, i need sleep i'll be back lol, speak again soon hun x

thanks territorial

i can see how i came across a bit wrong,

the parents I work with in RL would have no idea about ODD

slurring my words now goodnight late night posters

only read the first page sorry

i think that the fact you posted the stuff you did and are employed to help people throught the statementing process demonstrates brilliantly
a) why 20% cuts in public sector aren't nec. a bad thing
b) so much of what was wrong with Gordon Browns Britain/nu labour reforms/public sector bloat/gov. using tax revenues to create non jobs etc etc

although you did take your pasting well!!
Are you going to ask your boss for some education/training now?

You are still back peddling like hell... And I am going to bed.

Please know what you are talking about before posting insane, hurtful threads asking if you are being unreasonable!

noopska 'the parents I work with in RL would have no idea about ODD' - that's sort of what I meant though, as a professional (of whatever sort), you maybe should have, and should be prepared to advocate for those children whose parents don't...

The whole administration of statements is very wearing, not just the getting of them, but the upkeep. So many statements are not relevant by the time a child leaves primary (in both directions, the child may need much more, or much less support). If you are working in an educationalk context, this is one area you could have a very positive effect by ensuring AR are carried out properly and current needs are assessed and support tweaked to deliver.

"I suppose I'm just interested in how a set of behaviours becomes a disorder"

Erm because that is how what a disorder is. A set of behaviours.

Similarly a "Syndrome" is a set of symptoms.

Some rare physical syndromes, like for example Kawasaki Syndrome, are very little understood (eg how the hell kids actually get it.) But the symptoms are all there, and most importantly, the things to make it better work every time, so therefore it has been classified as a Syndrome. It doesn't mean anyone really understands it, just that a diagnosis means that a way can be seen to help.

In a disorder, the same distressing set of behaviours tends to be presented, and these respond in a similar way to the same treatment.

What do you want to see before you think a diagnosis should be permitted to be made, big red spots?

The fact that there may be some people who confuse ODD with ordinary tantrums hardly means that ODD does not exist.

I know of people who think a sniffle is flu and an ordinary cold is pneumonia. Does that mean pneumonia does not exist?