To be seriously worried the new govt are looking at cutting child benefit...

[cherrymama]

to 'middle class' families?What does that mean?We both work but have four kids and losing that income will seriously affect us...so please tell me IABU and that it won't happen!

I agree with your post furiou27.

Working people shpuld NEVER be worse off than those that don't.

I don't want to derail the thread into the administration of tax, but there is a point around how expensive some taxes and benefits are to administer.

The tax system is seen as distinct from the benefits system and managed differently. Anything that cuts across both systems - WTC and CTC is heinously costly to administer.

Meanwhile of course HMRC are suffering cutbacks - the numbers of staff are dramatically down. This means that fewer tax evaders and fraudsters are being tracked. A significant proportion of the self-employed underdeclare their tax and routinely get away with it. It simply costs more to track them and prosecute them than it does to turn a blind eye.

So in my view, the tax system and benefits system should be aggregated. It would be easier then to provide a minimum income guarantee for working families and families with childcare responsibilities, decreasing on a sliding scale up to £50k.

Then the money saved in reduced tax administration could be used to pursue the tax dodgers effectively - making it fairer all round.

That is an excellent point, Quattro. You have the DWP administering some benefits and the HMRC doing tax credits, and some benefits administered by DWP also taxable.

Tax Credits alone cost over half a billion to administer and there are about £1bn of error each year.

This, 'Other bills - council tax, gas, water etc £800 a month.' from furious's posts, however, is shocking, especially considering from the rest of her post this amount does not cover food.

What an Earth are you spending money on?

Even if council tax, gas and water were on meters, you'd still only be talking about £500 max.

The party's over, folks!

The mobiles, Sky, running two cars, holidays, etc. may have to go.

People did manage before tax credits etc but equally they weren't taken into consideration when calculating things like mortgages and various other loans, plus stealth taxes have increased, it's been given in one hand then taken in the other and now it's being taken with both apparently.

It was blantly clear this would happen eventually which is why people need to start making plans now. Get rid of debt asap, get rid of the 2nd car what ever it takes before the shit hits the fan, i've been doing so since 2007 and we're nearly safe no matter what happens.

The mobiles, Sky, running two cars, holidays, etc. may have to go

Of course that will mean job cuts in those industry's and therefore a prolonged recession, it's such a mess

We've been working towards jettisoning debt, too.

The working poor will get hammered because they'll use the new £10,000 tax free threshold to hammer in loads of cuts, and raise VAT and NI, too.

I'm starting an OU certificate course in September, too, but will also need to work FT at something once DS turns 2 in November and can go into the only private nursery here that offers full days.

Because DH works in a hotel, I can look at other hotels or care homes and we'll need to swap shifts.

That way we can clear debts.

Because we're under no illusions about this government.

"I think there should be definately something in place so those on benefits do not benefit from reproducing." nice attitude there ..... did it ever cross your mind that not everyone on benefits has kids so they can get more money. Kids aren't always planned.... life isnt as black and white as you are trying to make it. Are you saying that if someone on benefits falls pregnant they should have an abortion because they are unable to support themself at that time? Because that is pretty much what it boils down to.

expat.... your going to run yourself into the ground very quickly

Myboylovesbeans - I would suggest if you knew there wouldn't be any more benefits you'd make damn sure it didn't happen in the first place.

'expat.... your going to run yourself into the ground very quickly'

Maybe, but I like to think I'm made of pretty tough stuff. Anyhow, being from the US, it's commonplace for adults to work FT and study in their 40s and 50s. I worked with two doctors who were working FT as doctors in their 50s AND going to law school. And many in professional careers also going to law school in their 40s.

My own sister teaches full time and also got a master's degree when she was 39 and she has two children.

It's rare there for one person in a couple to stay home, as there is either no or limited welfare available AND they have to pay insurance premiums for healthcare, too.

The retirement age is higher, too. First thing DH noticed was a much higher number of older people in work.

The UK may have to head in a similar direction with regards to some of these things because the government may find it unaffordable to do otherwise .

To quote a fav book of mine, 'It's a harsh truth, but that's mostly the way of things, even in the best of times.'

'we a lready dont have those things. nor do most people i know.'

Riven, you know your situation is different because you are a carer.

But £800/month on council tax, gas, water and other things that don't include food?

That's a lot of £££.

We don't have those things, either, we're still here!

'Kids aren't always planned.... life isnt as black and white as you are trying to make it. Are you saying that if someone on benefits falls pregnant they should have an abortion because they are unable to support themself at that time? Because that is pretty much what it boils down to.'

I think, if mama's posts on other threads go, she's of the opinion that folks on benefits who have additional children whilst on benefits should not receive additional funds when the new baby arrives.

I could be wrong, though.

Perfect example within my own family.
K was very unhappy at home and left school with no qualifications in 1990's, had a baby with some tosser who left when the baby was a year old. She had various boyfriends throughout the next 5 years but made damn sure she never got pregnant and did indeed have one abortion because she knew she'd fucked up once and there was no way she was going to do anything to the determent of the child she already had.
That baby is at University now and K is happily married with 2 under 2, having qualified and done very well for herself in life.
Compared to another member of the family who just basically kept having accidents every 4 years, she is now heading for mid thirties and struggling the same as when she was 18, nobody in that family is going to benefit, they survive not live and it will not improve anytime soon.
They aren't happy, well adjusted people, they drink too much block out the stress and poor quality of life, throwing money to that family did them no favors at all.

Just got our P60s through and we earned £33000 between us last year. We get about £35 a month CTC to help with childcare which in reality costs about £150 a month. We rent - can't afford to buy - but get by. We are not poor. We don't ever go on holiday but we do not feel poor.
In the last year or so, we have stopped Sky, got much better mobile phone deals, a much cheaper broadband deal and generally been carefuly about spending. It has saved us money.

Going on foreign holidays, having a nice car etc shouldn't be a given as someone else said on here.
People in this country expect too much. I have lived in different countries over the years and i think that in Britain we have forgotten how lucky we are. Yes, the tories are in but the cuts were going to happen whatever government came in.

I was thinking about this after seeing the BBC interviews.

It's easy to see why a family with substantial mortgage and 2 lots of preschool childcare fees would feel they struggled with 40-50K income. And interest rates are low at the moment so it could get worse. This is worst for people with children under 5.

Would keeping the WTC childcare element help? (that tapers off pretty quickly with income). Then the help would be there for people who don't earn enough to cover childcare costs, if the govt is so determined that they should work it can subsidise people who are effectively doing it as a hobby/ to keep career going.

The alternative is to admit you don't earn enough to pay someone else to look after your kids and do it yourself (i.e. SAHM or SAHD or combo) until one of them is at school. But that is a risky thing to do in (middle class) professional type jobs, to take a break, as you might never get back in.

Has a problem been created where previously families who would have just managed on one income with no childcare, can't now afford that without benefits (perhaps due to rising house prices since 1997) to enable the 2nd partner to work profitably while kids are young. And now the expectation is that mums will go back to work, you almost need an excuse not to put your child into Ofsted approved EYFS childcare, we are stuck in a kind of middle class benefit trap.

I think it's the preschool childcare thing that is the pinch point, that is the few years when people are most reliant on the TC, in usual circumstances.

Can someone please answer a genuine question for me, if you work fulltime and all your children are at school age, what childcare do you need for afters chool care? Does the school provide this or do you have to pay? And what on earth do you do during school holidays?
I went back to work a few months ago and really struggle with school holidays. It costs a fortune in childcare

Riven you say that in 2003 you got no tax credits, what about WFTC? We had our eldest in 2002, income of about £30k. We had WFTC in DH's pay every month. Actually WFTC was a far simpler system than CTC/WTC IMHO.

I honestly would be seriously pissed off if they did cut child benefit for the 'middle classes ' - lets say over 50k .

WE get no WTC or any other benefit. Have never claimed any benefit in my life . We both have private pensions sorted out.

Both myself and my husband work ( I have two part time jobs) and together we earn just over , that is including his overtime.

The child benefit that we have is saved for the children , for their futuer whether it be to help them with University fees or help with a deposit on house etc.

We have dipped into it to pay for private health care for the children - i.e private SALT , seeing a private ENT consultant.

But the money is being saved for their future.
So why should are savings for our childrens future be taken away ?

I have no problem with people from lower incomes having benefit that they are entitled to - fairly obvious- but will get pissed off when the middle class who earn just over the relevant cut off have to work harder and lose the only benefit they are entitled to.

I know that I am likely to get flamed for saying this but I bet there are a lot of MN who feel the same.

MojoLost You pay for before and after school clubs and then around £450 a week for the school holidays of which there are lots, DH and I take the children away separately so that gives us 10 weeks a year "free" and still we have to use holiday clubs.
What with that and other school related costs, meals, snacks, constantly having your hand in your pocket for charity days, the school not giving a toss about lost uniform, damaged clothes etc I am still waiting to be better off once they start school.
I honestly think if people waited 4 years between having children everybody would have one, you've no idea how cheap a baby is.

Yes we run two cars - both old bangers - we have to get to work!!

Dh spends 150 a month on petrol - plus about £40 on tunnel fee (he has to go through mersey tunnel to work). I spend about a £100.

We only have the basic bills - but yes we both have mobiles - I even have daily ddisposable contact lenses!! - but really do you not think that condsidering we are both professionals and both have higher degrees - he works 40 hours a week, plus an hour travelling. I work 25 hours.

Surely we should be able to expct a reasonable standard of living. My father worked in a factory all his life - he worked hard but an unskilled job - my mother never worked and their house is a lot bigger than ours. Growing up we always had holidays - we ccannot afford holidays. Something has gone wrong in this country.

Riven mentioned take home should be 2900 - dh pays into a public sector pension - something that we are worried the torys will also cut.