In thinking the woman Gordon Brown called a bigot deserved it ?

[SwissCheeseIsHolyCheesus]

Because she was in fact a bigoted, bigotty pants .

Can I recommend this article.

"I could rehearse the positive case for the umpteenth time. Immigrants work hard, wherever they land. They treasure education for their children. When welcomed, they express their gratitude through invincible patriotism and an enviable belief in law and order. They bring new thoughts, new talents and a new sense of cultural possibilities. You can assess their potential now, if you must, simply by imagining the absence of every previous immigrant generation.

Imagine Britain without its Asians, its Irish, its Afro-Caribbeans, its Jews, its Chinese.

But let?s not. Mrs Duffy asked a precise (sort of) question. She said: ?All these eastern Europeans what are coming in, where are they flocking from?? I think she meant two things: why are they flocking, and why are they here? The obvious rejoinder is: why should it matter?"

She was not a bigot - if she was, then so was GB for calling her one. And this reference to 'that woman' all the time, I find offensive. You have to ask yourself why the people of Oldham and Rochdale (or some of them) feel the way they do? I read a post on here from some poncey southerner implying that they are more educated and that immigrant populations have been there longer so they have integrated better. Twaddle in my humble opinion. Maybe the people of Oldham and Rochdale are not as well educated, or maybe they just call a spade a spade (and please do not read any racist intent into that word!) and do not pay lip service to airy fairy notions of integration. Oldham has been virtually taken over by our Asian friends - nothing wrong with that you might think - but it can leave people feelng displaced in what they see as their own land. By and large the Asians do not mix, they live in ghettos and the local schools becomes 100% Asian, which cannot be good for anyone. Before I get flamed, I genuinely don't know what the answer is - but Mrs Duffy was not a bigot.

No Foxy, it was in Turkey. And I hung around with Turkish people whilst I was there and you know what? I formed amazingly deep bonds with people over there. But it was hard because as a Westerner I was out of step unintentionally with the general populus in my ways. I learned the language and tried my best to learn how to behave so as not to stand out (although that was hard having fair hair and blue eyes).
I know you found my post facile, but I was simply pointing out the philosopical idea that, no matter what culture we are from, we generally speaking, get on better with others who are similar in values to ourselves. That's a universal thing and a very general one, not specific to any one race. I know there are exceptions to that rule of course. But humanly speaking we're all drawn to like-minded people. It's not a failing, it's just being human.
Of course, it's great to open ourselves up to people who are totally different also, but there are very few people who can actually do that. I can honestly say I have sought to do this in my own life with some success, but many in fact most people don't do this and I don't judge them for it.
I also wish this wasn't true,and that we could all embrace one another's differences, but I think that generally people find it hard to do this. My post simply acknowledged the reality of this and NOT my own ideas on how things should be.
Sorry about the sarcasm in my last post to you btw :-)

Fearnelinen, I hope your'e not suggesting that all Americans are the same;-) I never said whether or not my dh was a balck american, an italian american, a mexican american etc...and to suggest that are all alike may also be construed as "bigotted". I propose we stop bandying the term about to apply to all those people who disagree with us (which it seems to have been reduced to!) and let's get down to basics.
Also FYI - I dated guys from all over the Middle East also, some of whom were extremely decent, some of whom were not. I'm sure they were in direct proportion to the ratio of decent/not decent guys from the British Isles. No more, no less. One thing is true and that's that men can be tw*ts from all four corners of the earth, lol.

I have immense respect for many of the Polish and Eastern European workers that come here. I think that so many people are an asset to our nation. I was not talking about EU immigration in my post. So actually, and sorry to disappoint, I agree with you. All are welcome here, but I think you should offer something in return, even if it's being a good and kind citizen who wants to belong and take part in our society. I'm not keen on anyone who isn't interested in being a part of society. Is that so bad?

Thing is Henny, pointing out that we generally get on with our own etc. is stuff that we all already know and acknowledge so it added nothing to the discussion. Surrounded by other points in your posts it sounded like some of the arguements excuses trotted out by small minded people. In fact they say it to defend their desire to keep other people out of this country and to attack other cultures living here with it. (Ie, they don't want to integrate/assimilate and they are creating Paki/Polish ghettos in our city) Oblivious of the fact that the reception they are given is partly responsible for immigrants seeking to live among their own.

things like 'immigration cannot go unchecked'. It doesn't go unchecked. Many many people want the immigration laws reviewed etc but a blanket statement like that can come from a wide array of jingoistic people who hardly want to accept the pluralistic society we already have.

and 'I can only imagine that they like the idea of multiculturalism but have no experience of the real thing' - It shows a naivete to your audience. No point telling you about me because that makes it personal and that isn't what we want. Suffice it to say that there are many reasons mothers turn to MN and living outside one's culture is a popular one.

I don't want to go on and on and on.

On a personal note. In the 10 yrs from 80 - 90, the population of my home country swelled by 26%. The vast majority of that increase were dirt poor war refugees who walked across the borders from 2 war torn countries. They did not speak English either. People who had nothing save the clothes on their backs for the most part. Most were illiterate. I am from a small, poor country. We had very little to offer these people. The education and health system came under a lot of pressure and being a part of the Commonwealth, are modelled on the UK system.

Yes there was social concerns and the bigots wanted to 'get' the 'paisanos' but on the whole, people let them live. and integrate they did. Maybe it was easier because they country was already so pluralistic anyway that we could accept outsiders easier. I am aghast that a country with so much more to give can give so little to proportionately fewer. And what it gives, it gives so stingily.

My mum says that those who have less to give are nearly always more generous than those who have plenty. I have found that to be true on the individual level too.

nuff ramblings for one night. hope you have a better idea where I am coming from.

I hadn't read the post from 'whatwasthatagain' before I posted but I ironic and sad that we both mentioned the word 'ghetto' to make our points.

one Q for whatwasthatagain:

as you felt offended by GB calling Mrs Duffy, 'that woman', can you tell me how you feel about her using the term, 'flocks of Eastern Europeans'?

he's going to lose, folks.

in a matter of hours.

so go on slagging him away!

and you will all reap what you've sown.

it's no more his fault than mine.

my family yesterday were referred to as 'fucking Scottish' and we're all alike.

how many more think that, i can't help wondering? how many more see us as just a pain in the arse? an adjunt? something to tax or try things out on before rolling it out, not the 'real' UK?

what does it matter? he's just a 'one-eyed Scottish' man.

my children, well, they're only so good as the taxes they might pay to clean it all up.

and i thought i'd never in the world encourage them to move on from here, the most beautiful place in all the world.

it makes my heart break to see this place every morning, how beautiful it is.

you people don't know you were born, being born in a place as beautiful as this.

never having to worry about cartels, or kidnapping, or so many horrible things, or even getting shot trying to vote.

but no, it's bitch and moan and some are just an adjunct not really worth thinking about.

how shameful. how sad.

depressed already that he will lose, exp.

Gordon is a hard worker and a loyal man and when he took over from Blair I was telling him 'nooooo!! it's a poison chalice.' But he didn't listen. I remember I was on holiday sitting in the little living room of the flat when I heard.

Like Jimmy Carter, I think his future will be brighter in another role.

I'm so with you, foxy.

"never having to worry about cartels, or kidnapping, or so many horrible things, or even getting shot trying to vote.

but no, it's bitch and moan and some are just an adjunct not really worth thinking about.

how shameful. how sad."

yup. these people have the luxury of worrying about a man who was venting about his staff picking the 'wrong' woman to meet.

or that home education policy is curtailing their freedoms (I have HE friends I love and respect but they haven't a clue how minute in the scheme of things this worry is.)

and I can go on but then again, I have called who don't have plates to eat off, never, ever and people who have always had mud floors in their one room huts so they complain about them coming here and using our NHS, I just don't have the same perspective.

will buy a pack of fags, for thursday night.

i know, i know in my heart of hearts.

i read people on here, 'i hope he goes back to scotland with his tail between his legs.'

oh, thank you so much, you make me so proud my children are forced to bear a British passport! next time you so much as make a slight on Americans, i'll throw that back in your face, how petty you are.

you moan about paying taxes for a peaceful society, you have no idea.

and to think, it's all an accident of birth, what you got to grow up with.

my middle one has brown eyes. liquid brown, like chocolate.

my sister calls her 'mexi-scot'.

but, well, she's just an afterthought to so many here. how comforting.

"I have called 'friend' some who..."

dodgy old keyboard.

don't buy the fags, you'll regret it.

get some tequila instead. mescal if you can.

I guess I don't, either, foxy.

I guess part of me will always be the Mexican, the person who thought an asylum seeker's life was worth my own.

If anything, and I'm a lot of bad things, I least I gave a damn.

If I got my hands on mescal I'd have to drink the worm. UGGHH! NO!

It would mean Lupe Pintos and a long road into Glasgow.

Gal who runs it is half-Mexican, half-Spaniard, born and brought up in America.

She does a good trade, but if you buy her mescal she'd probably make you share a shot!

night night exp. i have work in the AM.

I do understand what you mean Foxy. I agree that often the indiginous community does very little to welcome immigrants and definately does a lot to make them feel alienated.
Regarding 'immigration cannot go unchecked'. It has gone a little bit unchecked, when the government admit that they've "lost" almost a million people.

Your story sounds very difficult, and
and my heart goes out to you.

There are so many issues you raise.I'm too tired to address them now as it's late, but I do see where you're coming from.

It's important you share your personal experience as it's things like that that connects us to one another and breaks down the barriers I was thinking of when I wrote my message.

Regards and I'm sorry if I made you feel unwelcome in anyway. It was not my intention.

Foxy - I have no problem with 'flocks' of Eastern Europeans - I quite like the word 'flocks'.

I have a friend who works on the willy ward in the local hospital and when the eastern europeans started coming in she says they where full of STDs
Money was being diverted to cure them that could of been spent elsewhere
Why is it bigoted or racist to have an opinion on immagrants?

It depends what she was worried about. If she was fed up of seeing headscarves or ethnic dress on the high street then IMO she gets no sympathy.

However if she was concerned because her grandaughter is in a class where eight of the 29 pupils don't speak English and she's worried her grandaughter's education is suffering as a result, then I can see her concern.

That's why I think GB shouldn't have just brushed off her concerns and said what he said, he should have asked her what exactly the problem was and then dealt with it accordingly. He would have earned a lot more respect.

jason
Your friend is out of order revealing that info - so much so that it would lead me to think that it isn't actually true.

I quite like the word 'flocks' when it is used to refer to birds and sometimes even sheep in the pastoral sort of way.

I wouldn't refer to human beings as flocks because it equates them with barn animals & domesticated birds. It is a tiny step in the dehumanising process which has once already led to people being treated like flocks and herded into cattle trucks.

I think the woman deserved it ? and GB told the truth for possibly the first time during the whole campaign!

You didn't upset me Henny. but thanks for the apologies anyway.

I am one of the lucky people in this world who has never known real deprivation.