Should I have said "the Chinese lady"?

[RunawayWife]

Had the oddest conversation today that made me think have we all gone PC mad

Went to sign on with a new dentist, it is the practice my children are with, but I have always gone back to my old dentist where we used to live, now however (as I don't drive) I find getting a bus a tube and a 15 minuet walk to get there a bit much as a trip to the dentist takes all day...so I go in and ask to register with them and make an appointment for DS2 .
The receptionist says they will sign me on with the same dentist who my children see and ask who it is...now I know I should know her name but she replaced their old dentist and we have only seen her once 6 months ago and I am useless with names of people I have just met let alone someone I saw for 10 minuets 6 months ago, so I say oh um the lady upstairs, so the receptionist says there are two which one, so I think and say oh the lady with dark hair, receptionist says they both have dark hair so I think again and say the lady that took over from xxxx, and the receptionist says is it the Chinese lady or the Indian lady?! (seems 2 people were coving for xxxx at first)

I wonder if I should have just said that it is the Chinese lady to start with!

How have "we all gone PC mad" exactly?

Chinese doesn't actually mean only people from China does it? I think it is an ethnicity as well? Like you get Chinese people in Singapore, Malaysia, Brunei etc.?

[clueless]

Under 5's are not blind, they do of course notice skin colour. What they don't do is classify based on it.

I wouldn't be bothered if you live in the UK nosey, its not generally viewed as very offensive there, though I think its less popular a term than it was.

VengefulKitty, I think Chinese and Japanese would be East Asian, whereas the others in your list would be S.E. Asian. They would all be separate ethnic groups, but grouped according to geography. For the purposes of the list, I think Other Asian or Other Ethnic Group would be fine. It's a really badly compiled list imo; whoever composed it was not aware of the complexity of ethnicity in Asia.

Saying 'Asian' is a bit like saying 'European' -- very vague.

Heracles - because we can't say "You know the one I mean - she's got slitty eyes" any more.

Oh my son is very colour aware.

ds - I love you granny and I'm just like you , you is black and I is black (he's not black).

gran: Ok I'm not black, more coffee coloured.

ds - don't be silly granny - coffee is a drink. You are not a cup of coffee. I am right, you are wrong, you is black and I is black.

Can't argue with that. A year on at 4 he still thinks he's black and just that other people are 'blacker' (his words)than him.

You are right - he doesn't attribute anything to it - he just loves his gran and wants to be like her.

I'dhave said ' oh is it the chinese looking woman'?

I think we get ourselves in knots over terminology as it's ever changes.

Can I ask something? If the two women you were talking about were both British, but one was black, and one was white, would you have said 'the black lady' or 'the white lady'

?

Don't get your point. How could you tell by looking that they were both British? But to answer your question, then if it would be appropriate to identify someone as having red hair, then it would be equally appropriate to identify someone as black or white.

Not sure why it would matter that they were both British, just taking out any other influence in my question I suppose? I don't know...

I've always wondered about this seeker, but I constantly see people at work stumbling over this. We have people coming for interview all the time, and when someone ask's who's next, and someone doesn't know their names they'll say 'the tall woman with the red shoes/the man with the brown briefcase' instead of 'the black lady/chinese man/' etc

which is correct?

'There are studies that show children under 5 don't notice skin colour.'

My 4 year-old DD has asked quite a few questions about people's skin colour, although she uses the word 'dark' to refer to black people, which I keep correcting. She also described one of our friends as black, even though he is not. He is olive skinned.

It's not offensive, anti-PC, illegal, frowned upon, whatever to DESCRIBE someone, for pity's sake.

Being "PC" is easy: engage your brain, don't be rude. Job done. Anyone who claims the mythical "PC Brigade" is stopping them being or saying anything other than thoughtless and rude is a knee-jerking idiot.

My DH is Chinese, and would like to categorically state that he would not be offended at being described as 'The Chinese man'!
He has also added that if you were to guess at another race, and describe him as Japanese, for example, he would correct you politely, but he certainly wouldn't be offended.
He is also wondering why people consider 'oriental' to be an offensive term? He has been described this way in the past and has never thought to be offended by it!

Heracles - well, I must be a knee-jerking idiot then thanks for sorting that out.

It can be difficult to know how to describe people without offending someone.... it is not just a matter of engaging your brain and not being rude. Quite frankly, it gets bloody complicated.

I too have a friend who says 'oriental' is for rugs

Mathanxiety, Chinese is a race and a nationality, which probably lends to all the confusion.

Many years ago we had neighbours who are chinese.

Their children went to school with mine.

We were having a conversation with friends one day and someone said "Oh you mean the chinese people around the corner"

My DS (8 at the time). Said "Mum Vincent isn't chinese. He's English with Chinese eyes"

Ds is quite puzzled when described as "white". He ALWAYS replies that he is rather "peach" or "beige brown " which is more accurate really.

I think it is now very un-PC to refer to someone by their ethnicity in Europe. There is too much pathos associated with identity.

Where I am it is very common to refer to someone as "chinese" "caucasian" "indian" "muslim" etc....these are just broad labels meant to describe not stigmatise. It takes a little while for newly arrived "caucasians" to relax a bit and realise there is no social stigma to the label.

To answer your question, I would have said chinese lady.

Chinese is a race? I disagree. The idea of 'race' and what constitutes a 'race' has always been up for grabs. But 'Chinese' has never been classified as a 'race'.

List of ethnic groups in China; many are transnational. Borders are not set in stone (even the Great Wall was breached and rebuilt and extended many times).

It would be OK to describe the woman as being Chinese if she was indeed Chinese. It would be very NOT OK is she wasn't Chinese. It really irks me that my children and I are continually described as "chinese" when there is not a drop of CHinese blood in us! I am Korean and my children are Eurasian!

As for Oriental, no offence taken by me at this description and I have never thought it was racist. However, I am more accustomed to calling myself Asian (prior to moving to the UK where I was baffled to discover that calling onself Asian was OK only i one was Indian or from Pakistan!).

OK- it's basic good manners NEVER to use physical characteristics to describe someone unless there is genuinely no alternative. So red shirt is always better than red hair. The woman with the green handbag is always better than the black woman. That's not PC, that's common courtesy.

So if all else fails - if two people are completely identical in all other ways, then go for hair colour, or skin colour or short or tall. But usually it's not necessary.

Who says its basic good manners? Its fashionable, thats all.
europeans have always used hair colour, height etc to distinguish between each other. Not all changes are progress - some are just fads that dont advance civilisation one bit.

I guess its a question of perspective.

Here in Singapore, "chinese" is a "race" or "ethnic group", the largest actually. So are "tamils" "indians" "malays" etc etc....It is established in the constitution.

Generally throughout south east asia it is very common and not at all derogatory to refer to someone by their ethnic origin.

People take pride in being chinese-thai or indian singaporean like people refer to themselves as korean american or african american or italian american, IYKWIM?

Now that I've been away from Europe for a few years, I do realise that Europe is still very immature in that respect.

I also think "Chinese" is a race or ethnic group, not just a nationality. I have Malaysian friends who describe themselves as Chinese.

If I wasn't sure she was Chinese (and I doubt I would be just by looking), I would say 'the Asian woman'.

I know this covers a whole host of countries, but growing up where I did, Chinese people come under the Asian 'banner' more than Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, etc. I had never heard the latter described as Asian until I moved to the UK. Plus, I really don't see how describing someone as Asian can be offensive.

I am a Kiwi and am regularly asked if I am Australian. It doesn't offend me - why would it? I just say, no, I'm a New Zealander.

As for the term 'Oriental' - what can I say? To my ears, it is an outdated term (unlike Asian) and it jars. I know it is the case that it is not perceived as a questionable way to describe someone here in Britain, but I'm not suddenly going to embrace the word, just because of that. I will continue to avoid it.

I don't blame anyone for using it - as I say, it's not considered offensive here. But I suppose if I were to learn that it can be considered offensive elsewhere, I would probably start to scale back my use of it.

Of course Chinese is an ethnic group, it doesn't just mean people from China. There are millions of people who would identify themselves as chinese without ever having been to china. Singapore, Malaysia, Taiwan etc have vast numbers of ethnic chinese citizens, and the Han Chinese ethnic group is the largest single ethnic group in the world (estimated to make up about 20% of the global population)

I just think it's such a shame that people who are not prejudiced are treading on eggshells all the time. I do appreciate that there are efforts being made to undo years of discrimination etc but it really is getting ridiculous. As long as there is no venom behind a description of a person, surely it's fine to say what you see? My mother (who is married to a man from the middle east fwiw) recently got herself into a terrible state after trying to explain to someone that a child was 'mixed race'. She wasn't sure if 'mixed race' was acceptable, although she vaugely recognised that 'half caste' was now unacceptable. She is in her mid-seventies nad simply couldn't remember what was 'allowed' any more. She was desperate not to offend and ended up going round the houses saying that the boys mother was from Nottingham and she had blonde hair (read caucasian) and his father was from Jamaica with curly black hair.

Honestly, if are trying to explain who you mean without taking 10 years, what is wrong with saying 'I think she is Chinese' - therfore not assuimng she is Chinese but saying what you think - that she probably is Chinese. Low and behold, we all know which dentist you mean.