Circumcision?

[Claire236]

I've never started a thread in AIBU before as it can be quite scary so please be nice. My dh was circumcised as an adult for medical reasons & ds1 had to have an operation so has in effect been circumcised. ds2 (almost 5 months) is as nature intended but I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to have him circumcised. Firstly as that way he will grow up looking the same as his brother & dad which I think could make a difference to how he feels when he gets a bit older. Secondly because it seems more hygenic. I'm unsure due to the fact that ds1s op for horribly painful & I wouldn't want to put ds2 through that for no good reason. I haven't spoken to my GP about this so don't know when is normal to have it done or anything but I'd really like to know if people think I'm BU considering this.

Only about 1.5% of boys need to be circumcised because their foreskins were too tight. I don't think a very small number of children's potential emotional distress is enough of a reason not to move to a more civilised society where circumcision is frowned upon and so the practice dies out (if no one has the guts to legislate against it). I'm much more concerned about the majority of boys who have it done being put through a painful and unnecessary procedure. If they chopped off any other part of their child's anatomy, their parents would be suspected of Munchausen's by proxy.

Your argument for keeping an outdated and unpleasant tradition continuing is the same one that keeps women locked away against their will and countless other human rights transgressions. It really isn't a good enough reason to continue to press for legislative and cultural change. Isn't it about time we all moved into the 21st century and left things like that behind?

Sorry, x-posted with the OP. Circumcision always arouses strong emotions here. Good on you for coming back and am delighted to hear that you're leaving your DS intact. Hopefully his foreskin will be the right size for his willy! (ps if it is too tight there are ways that it can be stretched I believe so worth exploring that avenue)

Never seen a thread about circumcision on here before so wasn't sure what sort of reception I'd get. Was nervous but whilst it got heated I'm relieved that I didn't come in for much in the way of personal attacks. Have learnt a lot too which is what I was hoping for.

Hi Reality, I have linked to that video further upthread. Setting up a link for that particular video is easier if you turn off the sound and put your hand over the screen - and do it fast!

Sorry if anyone was upset by the link, but I post it whenever one of these threads come up because that is the reality that will happen to the child, sometimes its easy to gloss over the procedure or assume anasthetic is used, and Reality is right - usually it isn't.

Claire236, I'm realy glad that you've made the descision that you have.

if anyone wants to find out more about the Jewish circumcision ritual, just google "Jewish circumcision ritual sucks blood mouth", plenty will come up.

my DH is circumsised and had it done age 13 because of tight foreskin.
he prefers it this way and feels cleaner, but thats his opinion.

unless its medically needed, his penis, his choice.

and also, there's a lot of hysteria about infection etc. on here.
if done properly, in a hospital, cant see why infection is a bigger issue than it would be in ANY operation?
or am i missing sokmething....

ps. DH said it was sore for a few days, hurt on the first pee, and accidently got an erection which was very painful, but having consequently had his tonsils out at age 18, would prefer to be circumsised again!

Onestonetogo

Your post is very untrue and I believe it will increase racial hatred.

I had my two boys circumcised for religious reasons - we are Jewish.

It was done done by someone who is specially qualified to do the procedure - you cannot do it just because you are a Rabbi. And in our case he was also medically qualifed.

My DH and I were in the room. There was an anaesthetic, everything was sterilised and there was absolutely no sucking of blood.

The boys cried out very briefly and then were calmed by feeding them. And that was it. It was fully recovered in a few days.

I have been watching this thread (and I suspect many other Jewish and Muslim mums have been watching too), but have not posted because of the extreamly hostile atmosphere.

Settingthisthingstraight, your DC may have had it done under sterile conditions, without the "mohel" sucking the penis's blood, but this is how the traditional practise commands it, and how it is still carried out today around the world (albeit more so in thE US than in the UK). Are you saying this is untrue?

It has nothing to do with race, but with religious traditions harming children. In the case of circumcision, it is physical abuse perpetrated to defenseless babies (whose parents are Muslim or Jewish) and as a society we need to be brave and speak up against it.

I'm happy your DC didn't catch any infection from the procedure, and that it was carried out by someone "experienced", but it was still a ritual done on a baby's body, without the baby agreeing to it, just because the baby's parents belong to a particuar religion. Sorry, that is deeply immoral.

Onestonetogo I find non-medically-essential circumcision abhorrent. That said, I've reported your ill-informed shrieky post to MN for inciting racial hatred and I sincerely hope it is deleted.

If for some reason it isn't, I would just ilke any Jewish or Muslim Mums on this thread to know I think onestone's post is a load of rubbish and hopefully so will everyone else.

Casserole, I'm sorry you think my post is racist, it isn't! I am speaking up against circumcision done for reigious reasons, as it constitutes child abuse. How is that a race issue? How did I incite "racial hatred"? Please explain! It is exactly people like you who will slow down progress in stopping this barbaric practice.
If something is wrong, cruel and immoral, I coudn't care less about the "race" of people carrying it out.

Onestonetogo, I did not find your post racist at all. I found it actually quite informative, I did not know that that is a common practice. You did not say anything against jewish or muslim people, just against certain traditions they carry out. I think that is not racist but a different view. I would be more than disappointed if that post would be deleted as it would show that you can't say anything against a tradition if it is due to religious reasons. In my opinion that's wrong and one of the causes of a lot of bad things in the world!

It is good to hear though that Settingthingsstraight did not have such an experience. I hope that is the case for the majority here in Britain!

BritFish: I think the only reason people mentioned infections were not that they are more common or anything, but that they just simply are a risk, just as with every surgery. Of course when done under proper conditions (as for your DH) it should be a small risk but it is there. So people on here commented that there is a risk and therefore people shouldn't circumcise their babies if not necessary. If that makes sense!? Just because if the operation os not necessary it is not worth risking an infection.

ScaredOne, I know! Unfortunately the "deleting fairies" have removed my post, which explained how the jewih ritual of circumcision is carried out in the orthodox tradition.
It explained that the person carrying it out (a rabbi or a mohel) inserts the baby's penis in his mouth to suck the blood. Anyone in a civil society would, naturally, find this practice repulsive, but apparently we condone it in the name of religious tradition.

I've sent an email to Mumsnet about deleting my post, saying that gagging debate will reduce us to talk about nappy rash only.

This is NOT the orthdox tradition.

www.come-and-hear.com/editor/br_4.html

Hope this works. If you know any different, please let us know, but denying it is true won't help.

I first found out about this ritual reading "The End Of Faith" by Sam Harris.

MNHQ have just replied my email saying that my post hadn't been deleted for being racist (it wasn't of course) but because I claimed that circumcision onstitutes child-cruelty, which wouldn't have been in the spirit of MN, considering that many MNetters have had their babies circumcised.

I never (nor did any one else on here) spoke against medical circumcision. Only circumcision on reigious grounds constitutes, imo, child cruelty.

That's good then, because it really wasn't racist. I do not remember how you said it exactly but maybe someone found it too confrontational.
I do agree though with the thought that doing it without medical reason is cruel. That is my opinion and although I know other people on this thread don't agree with it, I think it's ok to say.
Having a debate and all that

fwiw I don't think your post was racist. Surely a grown man putting his mouth on a childs genitals is child abuse no matter what religion you are. Disgusting. I really hope that isn't common practice these days.

"if done properly, in a hospital, cant see why infection is a bigger issue than it would be in ANY operation?
or am i missing sokmething...."

In a baby, BritFish, the risk of infection is higher because they are wearing nappy so it is much harder to keep the area clean. In a grown child/adukt, or course the risk is no higher.

"Sorry if anyone was upset by the link, but I post it whenever one of these threads come up because that is the reality that will happen to the child, sometimes its easy to gloss over the procedure or assume anasthetic is used, and Reality is right - usually it isn't."
What is the point of saying this to someone like the OP? This is not "the reality" of how her DS would be circumcised if she had decided to go ahead. Anasthetic may not be used in a religious circumcision but I'm afraid it is highly unlikely that you will convince these people not to have their sons circumcised as they believe they could not "be" that religion and would therefore end up in Hell.
What is likely to happen here, is someone whose DS needs a medical circumcision will google it and come up with this thread. Helpful.

Very interesting.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfnqN3YgTd8

It is a barbaric practice and if those minorities who practice it, largely the jews, did not have political power, then it would be outlawed.

To think about doing it to your child is beyond belief and you should be ashamed. And locked up if you mutilate your child.

I think you'll find that the Jews are far outnumbered by Muslims, 3point14, and you forget many tribal people for whom this is traditional. It has nothing to do with "political power", to be frank, and you come across as having some other agenda.

Your post seems borderline, and I would suggest you request MNHQ delete it for you, before someone complains formally.

Just for your benefit, so you do not think I am attacking your view in totality, I have yet to see a good reason for it to be carried out, either on religious or for "traditional" {tribal} reasons. I'm also not convinced on hygiene claims, else all males would be circumcised, worldwide, by now.

I accept medical needs, and have not commented on different methods, because sometimes, however distressing, the choice may be that of some doctor {and one can choose another doctor if the method suggested is too unpleasant}.

Some of my liberal Jewish friends in America now do a sort of ritual symbolic circumcision ritual that doesn't involve actually cutting off part of a baby's penis. I'm sure that's controversial within religious circles too, but it's an option worth looking into if you are Jewish but uncomfortable with the whole circumcision thing.

Tortoise, I've heard of those rituals, are they the ones where they just prick the glans? Cruel still, but better than circumcision imo.

Webdude, yes, there are far more Muslims than Jews. They all need to start putting babies' welfare, human rights and dignity before religious traditions.

Those who defend this barbaric practice in the name of "culture" or "tradition" are just as guilty as those who justify female circumcision. How long do we turn a blind eye to this????