to think that my DD has a right to a secular education

[Tinnitus]

Two years ago my DD came home to tell EXP and Me about the "true meaning of Christmas". We are both atheists and had purposely sought out a non religious school and so we were perplexed. We took every opportunity to explain that this story was just that, a story, not the literal truth.

Inevitably DD soon started on about the true meaning of Easter and so I made an appointment to see the headmistress of her school. By the time of the appointment I had learned from DD that it was a classroom helper who was feeding her this guff and not a teacher, and I felt a quiet word would suffice.

Imagine my surprise when I discovered that not only was the helper indoctrinating DD, but the local evangelical church held monthly assemblies with the children. Indeed it turns out that every school in the country must be affiliated with a church of some type, but is not obliged to brand themselves thus. The head mistress was courteous and obliging and agreed to my request that the brainwashing of DD stop. I made no demands about her education other than She does not come home spouting twaddle.

Two years on and she is beginning to again to talk about Heaven, Hell, God and the Devil. But she has no idea who Adam and Eve were. When I "tactfully" quizzed her about this I discover a local CofE vicar has been regularly talking to the children about his faith, but without emphasizing that it is only his own opinion. Worse still, He has had my DD praying in class.

I have asked the school to live up to their earlier agreement as calmly as I could.

AIBU

Well I'm not even saying are they the same. Just how can you tell which is the source of which urge.

I have lots of urges. I'd hazard a guess that some of those were not from god, but you never know

I can't say 'well the immoral ones are not from god' because I'm supposed to be relying on god to tell me which are the right morals.

(I think the AH was merely Ah not some obscure acronym)

onagar, you are not relying on God, you have to do it yourself. God won't help you, He wants you to do it for yourself. If you move towards Him, you will automatically be changed, but He does not force you to do anything, it is entirely up to you

If God were to come down and show you that He exists then your belief in Him would be worth nothing. Your belief is worth something precisely because you are not sure and yet you still choose to believe.

So you believe.

For sceptics, the whole idea that faith in something you can't see is a Good Thing is nothing more than a jolly convenient excuse for the non-appearance of God, a way of glossing over his (probable) non-existence.

Some of the points in the last couple of dozen posts might have sounded profound to me about 30 years ago. Nothing novel enough to keep me from my bed now, I'm afraid.

Good night

but how can you move towards him or know that you should do so. There is no reliable exchange going on between you and god at all. Any urge you feel to move towards god might be the wrong urge taking you the wrong way. Any feeling that you ^should' be moving towards god is itself unreliable since you have no way to know if that feeling is from god in the first place.

It's not that I disagree with you, but that there is nothing there to disagree with.

ooojimaflip, is that Douglas Adams? I think he didn't believe, and he has set up that imaginary conversation, but that is what it is, just imaginary. He uses the babel fish as the core of his argument, but I am sure that he believes in evolution, so he is pretending that he doesn't just to make his point.

The interesting thing is, if it is just a load of nonsense, why bother going to so much effort to disprove it? Why are there court cases in the US to remove "In God we trust" from the dollar bill and from being displayed in classrooms? What are they so worried about? It seems innocuous, so why the attempts to remove it?

Sorry Claig but thats not quite right.

God did not make DD, it was me and EXP shagging, that way we fertilized an egg, which grew into DD. Nothing to do with god.

I also believe I was clear in the OP that the CofE vicar was "regularly talking to the children about his faith, but without emphasizing that it is only his own opinion. Worse still, He has had my DD praying in class." If the man had my DD praying he could hardly claim not to be pushing his beliefs on to a seven year old child, MY CHILD!!!!

I think from your "free will/fatalist" ramble that you think religious people are more likely to make the right choice due to divine inspiration, I'm not looking to make a point here just genuinely couldn't see what you were talking about.

Just to clear up a point made earlier in my absence. Einstein was a theist. not an atheist.

onagar, it's years since I read the New Testament, but when I did it affected me and changed me temporarily. I really should read it more, it would make me a better person, but I don't. Read any spiritual book and the thoughts and wisdom will change you. Without knowing it, a conversation will have begun. Most of us only start making these moves when tragedy hits us, and find that it was there waiting for us all along. You will know the feeling when it hits you, the Spirit will move you, there'll be no mistaking it.

Sorry my last post came a bit out of sync with you lot.

We worry about the spread of religion in to classrooms because time and time again it all turn out to be nonsense. how many people pray to Ra, or set, or Quetzalcoatl, or Apollo, or Zeus, my guess is very few and that is the thing god botherers don't get. You are just the latest in a long line science has existed since the wheel, and your time is nearly up. there is nothing you can do about it except bow out gracefully.

We are not trying to disprove it. It's not possible to do so since it's all candyfloss. We are pointing out that there is no sane reason to think there is any truth to it in the first place.

We are not trying to stop religious people from having a religion, but trying to prevent them further damaging our society and our children.

It's never enough to believe. Religions must force others to agree with them. By compulsory indoctrination or by blowing up the unbelievers. That 'inner voice' guiding you in the 'right' direction is what guides suicide bombers and evangelists alike.

That's why religious education is forced on our children in this country. I suppose we should be grateful that the church can no longer burn us at the stake for not agreeing with them.

"the Spirit will move you, there'll be no mistaking it"

Meaningless words unless you have a way to distinguish between the spirit and mental illness. Which you don't.

I don't believe it is just an egg and sperm. I believe there is a divine infusion of spirit as well, and this is what life is.

Yes I believe there is such a thing as divine inspiration and certain few lucky people have received it.

If you don't want your DD to be influenced by Christian beliefs, fine, that is your choice. You will have to do whatever is necessary so that it doesn't happen.

Religion isn't spreading into classrooms. It's always been there. You know that I agree it should be taken out, but it's not a new thing.

Slightly fed up with the "I'm going to tell what what the problem is with you , you all think this" comments.

I can assure you it was just me and EXP, god was not there.

onagar, I don't mind if you don't believe in God. I think it is your loss, but it is your decision.

It does surprise me that something which many non-believers believe to be akin to the tooth fairy, should lead them to attack religion with such vehemence and vitriol. If it's all a load of baloney, then just laugh it off as a fantasy of those who believe.

I think some atheists are becoming more evangelical (YKWIM) now though. The bus thing. And Dawkins has certainly made more effort to persuade people of his POV than I have...

Nothing wrong with that of course. I rather like it.

Now, obviously I am a believer, but wouldn't the anti-religionists (rather than just atheists) argue that believing in this 'fantasy' leads people to do wrong and hurt other people. That's evident in a lot of posts. If you think that, then you're not going to shrug off religious teaching for your children.

the atheists are not the majority of the country. They are entitled to their beliefs. But if they want to abolish religion then it will infringe on the rights of those who do want to believe, who are still the majority. Look into the separation of Church and state in the USA or in France, instituted after the Revolution, and you will see that there is more to it.

CLaig: abolishing superstition would be an infringment of stupid people's human rights, and it wouldn't, actually, be possible (no government has ever managed to exert total control over what people are thinking). It's not that rational people mind the stupid ones believing in gods, it's when the stupid people insist on their daft delusions being taken seriously or allowed to infringe on other people's rights that there's a problem. Plenty of superstitious fuckwits, for instance, hate gay people and want to be allowed to discriminate against them.

SolidGoldBrass, the communists did it. Lenin was very worked up about it and said

"it is needed to get done with the priests and religion as soon as possible. Arrest the priests as the enemies of revolution and saboteurs, execute them without mercy everywhere you spot them. As many as you can! Churches should be shut down. The cathedrals have to be sealed and used as warehouses."

the same thing happened in the French Revolution, with priests and nuns butchered and churches ransacked. Some people do seem to take it all a bit seriously.

We have laws that protect people from discrimination. Society's views are constantly evolving.

"the atheists are not the majority of the country"

Not sure of all the figures but only 5% attend church. So what mandate are you claiming?

I don't think it is to do with attending church. I define religious as being anyone who believes in a divine power. But census figures for religion are
www.statistics.gov.uk/census2001/profiles/commentaries/ethnicity.asp#religion

Cool, so it isn't about your religion, it's all faiths verses rational thought. or did I miss something.

If you can lump all religion together as one how on earth can you expect us to respect any of them. you are saying they are all the same yet they are divided by interpretations of divinity. you seem to think that it is only important that we have faith, it doesn't mater what it's in. then fine, I have faith in rational thought , science, empirical evidence and that which can be proven and tested.

please don't post back about how god can stand up to any of that, He can't.

Tinnitus, I don't care what you believe. If you're happy with it great. I don't care if other people have different faiths to me, it doesn't bother me. I believe in live and let live. I don't see it as a competition, I am pleased that you are happy with your beliefs.