to think that my DD has a right to a secular education

[Tinnitus]

Two years ago my DD came home to tell EXP and Me about the "true meaning of Christmas". We are both atheists and had purposely sought out a non religious school and so we were perplexed. We took every opportunity to explain that this story was just that, a story, not the literal truth.

Inevitably DD soon started on about the true meaning of Easter and so I made an appointment to see the headmistress of her school. By the time of the appointment I had learned from DD that it was a classroom helper who was feeding her this guff and not a teacher, and I felt a quiet word would suffice.

Imagine my surprise when I discovered that not only was the helper indoctrinating DD, but the local evangelical church held monthly assemblies with the children. Indeed it turns out that every school in the country must be affiliated with a church of some type, but is not obliged to brand themselves thus. The head mistress was courteous and obliging and agreed to my request that the brainwashing of DD stop. I made no demands about her education other than She does not come home spouting twaddle.

Two years on and she is beginning to again to talk about Heaven, Hell, God and the Devil. But she has no idea who Adam and Eve were. When I "tactfully" quizzed her about this I discover a local CofE vicar has been regularly talking to the children about his faith, but without emphasizing that it is only his own opinion. Worse still, He has had my DD praying in class.

I have asked the school to live up to their earlier agreement as calmly as I could.

AIBU

In fact, now I think about it, I wish we had had more religious education at school (as in, education about the faiths of the world).

In 'my day' there wasn't any taking account of other faiths at all, even though one of the schools I went to consisted of around 50% non-Christians (who went along with singing Onward Christian Soldiers loudly and lustily in assembly, of course).

This isn't cherry picking spacehopper! Is anyone seriously considering that any Christian believes that Noah built an ark?!! I was told, at Sunday school-way, way back at the under 7yr old stage that it was an explanation. Are we seriously supposed to think that the animals lined up 2 by 2, the lions patiently waiting behind the zebras-and that if you reject it it is cherry picking?! Words really do fail me! I'm not remotely surprised that you think the whole lot fairy stories if you seriously expect Christians to believe it or that anyone would even expect them to believe it. Christians are intelligent beings. Many of the best minds, scientists included, have a religious faith.

I realise the thread has moved on from the OP and in particular the thread title, but I am interested in that - the right (or lack thereof) to a secular education. Given that we are largely a secular country, I do wonder why there is not more of a popular campaign for secular education. Although I do practise a religious faith I also agree that education should be secular. My children attend a village primary (non-faith) and I think they do have a significant Christian input. I personally don't get too het up about it because I am of course indoctrinating them into that faith myself(!) so although in principle I agree with the OP, in practice I direct my energies elsewhere. However, there are clearly people who feel much more strongly about it than me, and I wonder what response you have had from, for example, your MP or any other person or organisation you have lobbied about a change in the law.

I could point out that a secondary education would be more to your liking, and I have never taught in a school with the kind of overtly Christian emphasis that my DC's school has, but I guess you'll agree with the Jesuits that the damage will already have been done by then...

There is a campaign the FallenMadonna-I gave the link to the Secular Society near the start. It stays the way it is either because people are happy with it or because they moan and don't do anything constructive. Of course the government would have to act if there was mass revolt. I would assume that most people are like me and not bothered enough to get involved. I don't think that school is the place for collective worship but I think, especially after the misconceptions on here, that RE instruction is very important-if only to tell those who take things literally that the Red Sea didn't part, let some through and drown the rest!

@ TheFallenMadonna

A very enlightened view, thank you.

The problem is that most people believe that a secular education is available if you send you DCs to a non affiliated school. I was genuinely shocked when I discovered that was not the case but I was assured my wishes would be respected. so no need for a fuss, Right?

Wrong of course. My OP was as much about the school going back on a promise. obviously I would never have sought an assurance about an issue I didn't care too much about. and you're right the thread has moved slightly because so many people seem insistent on ignoring the theme of the thread and banging on about my DDs need for THEIR religion.

If the Jesuits were right then everyone over the age of about 50 would be in church every week! I bet there are more lapsed Catholics in this country that practicing ones-and the Catholic church did have them before 7 yrs. I would expect a 5 yr old , with any gumption, to ask why the lions didn't eat the contents of the ark! The only reason they don't ask is because it has never crossed their minds that anyone is telling them it really happened!

@ picesmoon

Are you really saying the problem here is OUR misconceptions? you haven't offered a single coherent argument on the entire thread. your position has shifted every time you get caught out and you've been ignoring me for ages.

The one thing that everyone should agree on in this thread is that schools and/or the government should make it clear that there are no secular state schools in England and that a school that is not a faith school is merely non denominational. There will be another thread, around Ascension day, when an aggrieved parent asks why their 'secular school' is holding assembles about it. It should be printed on every prospectus IMO.Probably the reason that everyone accepts it is that they never realise in the first place!

Come on Tinntinus-spacehopper called me boring for keeping on the one point-I can't be doing both!!

I know there is a campaign, I was wondering why it wasn't more popular. The trouble is, you want to change the law, you need to convince the law-makers. Currently, a child does not have the right to a secualr education by default - only by withdrawal from some school activities. I'm not sure it's public opinion you need to change. I think the majority aren't fussed about it really. When DS was in recpetion, the minister was applauded when he said how great it was that the school was celebrating the true meaning of Christmas. And most of those applauding do not attend church on a Sunday. You need to put it into people's minds as an issue. I'm not sure how you would do that.

It's not an issue because there is no harm in it at all. Our monarch is the Head of the Church and our legal system has us swearing on hte Bible(or is that just in movies?).

The head of a church posie...

okay okay....a church, the church that is the most likely to creep into schools.

If they are truly good people they will still be good people without the religion. If they are only good because of the religion (to please god) then they are not truly good.

It's not brainwashing. It's just part of education and it's your job to counter it at home.>

What? You mean it's the schools job to lie and yours to spend your time explaining that the school lied and repairing the damage?

It's entirely sane to believe in things that have never been seen, perceived or calculated. >

No. It's entirely sane to believe in the possibility of things that have never been seen, perceived or calculated. It's when you decide to believe they absolutely do exist without any reason to do so whatsoever that is irrational.

I'm not the first to point out a basic misunderstanding that keeps occurring. Most of us don't mind kids learning about religion just like history (in fact it's part of history). What we object to is someone teaching them to BE religious. An entirely different thing.

@ picesmoon

Sorry, I'm not spacehoppers keeper. But you really have moved your views around to suit the point you're trying to make.

Just a point of interest, A form of government where the head of state is also the head of the national church is a theocracy. that puts us on a par with Iran.

oh and whoever said about the true meaning of christmas will have missed the posts by SGB and myself.

"While some do celebrate them as religious festivals most of us do so for other reasons. They existed before Christianity and Christians just moved over the supposed dates of birth and insurrection to fit.

Easter with its eggs was originally about a fertility goddess of course. Most of the trappings of christmas and easter are taken from pagan rites. Eggs, Yule log, mistletoe and so on. We don't mind you celebrating yours on the same day though if you like."

Can I just add that they did research and most of our most intelligent minds did not believe in God....

tinnitus - I apologise. You are correct, I didn't read all 13 pages of the thread. I read the first couple of pages to see what the debate was about and the last couple to see where we had got to. I am also sorry that by commenting on a couple of points made during the last couple of pages, you feel I have jumped in. I consider that I was responding to some of those points. Perhaps I have missed something meaningful regarding whether it was the Romans or Jews that killed Jesus. You could also argue semantics - had it not been for both the High Priests and the Roman Governors his death may not have taken place.

2 weeks for crucixion to have its desired outcome seems somewhat surprising but I will take your word for it. Just surprised as many die of thirst in less time. Add in the weather impact (day night difference of temperature) and the pre crucifixion battering he took and I amazed he would have survived the night.

I don't think I mentioned the word 'all' when talking about schools being secular. But personally, I am in favour of keeping an understanding of religion in all schools. I think we miss out by excluding major viewpoints on why we are here. And as I said in my earlier post, I think it encourages a lack of tolerance.

Not sure of the relevance of that to this question posie, but a bit of a dig never goes amiss of course.

Someone else mentioned that Christians had some of the best minds.....

Actually it is quite relevant. Religious people often say (as someone did) that lots of very intelligent people believe in god.

They neglect to mention (or don't know) that it turns out the more intelligent people are the less likely they are to be religious.

posieparker and onagar, what you mean like Einstein? "God doesn't play dice"

Well yes, but the more likely they are to be male too, and I''m not reading too much into that .

OK fair enough if someone was claiming the intellectual high ground for religion. But I think it's irrelevant from either side TBH.