to think that my DD has a right to a secular education

[Tinnitus]

Two years ago my DD came home to tell EXP and Me about the "true meaning of Christmas". We are both atheists and had purposely sought out a non religious school and so we were perplexed. We took every opportunity to explain that this story was just that, a story, not the literal truth.

Inevitably DD soon started on about the true meaning of Easter and so I made an appointment to see the headmistress of her school. By the time of the appointment I had learned from DD that it was a classroom helper who was feeding her this guff and not a teacher, and I felt a quiet word would suffice.

Imagine my surprise when I discovered that not only was the helper indoctrinating DD, but the local evangelical church held monthly assemblies with the children. Indeed it turns out that every school in the country must be affiliated with a church of some type, but is not obliged to brand themselves thus. The head mistress was courteous and obliging and agreed to my request that the brainwashing of DD stop. I made no demands about her education other than She does not come home spouting twaddle.

Two years on and she is beginning to again to talk about Heaven, Hell, God and the Devil. But she has no idea who Adam and Eve were. When I "tactfully" quizzed her about this I discover a local CofE vicar has been regularly talking to the children about his faith, but without emphasizing that it is only his own opinion. Worse still, He has had my DD praying in class.

I have asked the school to live up to their earlier agreement as calmly as I could.

AIBU

Whilst studying liberation Theology I wqas surprised to agree with the notion that religion does have a part to play in abject poverty....thinking that your life has meaning and you will be rewarded in the afterlife is better than living thinking your crappy life is all there is.

Posieparker: That's one of the things religions is for - keeping the poor in their place because the rich tell them that it's better to be poor than rich and they will get their 'reward' after they die, so in the mean time shut up, obey your betters and don't even think about asserting your human rights or demanding fair wages or anything. Great Pumpkin Wants you to be poor.

I see no reason to respect the beliefs of anyone whose beliefs are not rational. I see every reason to be polite to the people who hold those beliefs. It's all a question of manners really.

SGB - you got in there first! I was going to say I can see that of course in many circumstances belief in an afterlife is valuable in affording comfort and strength in difficult times.

Sadly, the dark flipside of this is that it makes it easier to subjugate and control people if they believe that 'good behaviour' and not complaining about their lot will bring rewards in heaven, and/or save them from eternal damnation.

'The rich man at his castle, the poor man at his gate, God made them high or lowly and ordered their estate'

(IIRC)

I was going to shut up but Noah's Ark got to me!!! No one is supposed to take it seriously!!! It was man's interpretation at the time. No wonder people think it twaddle if they seriously consider that the world was made in 7 days and Adam and Eve were the first man and women or that all the animals are descended from the two in the ark. Every single civilization had creation stories. The aborigines, for example had lots, and (I may be wrong here) I didn't think that they had an organised, written down religion.
Words fail me sometimes! I do think that you ought to study the subject first. There wouldn't be any Christians (or very few) if people were expected to believed that Noah built an ark!!

Good grief! The rich man at his castle, the poor man at his gate was the Victorian view! The words were removed at least 50 yrs ago! Children no longer sing 'Onward Christian Soldiers'. It is a living religion-it moves with the times and how society is at the time.

Pisces: yup, nearly everyone has got over literally believing in the Ark.

But then, sceptics feel the same way about most of the rest of the Bible. Virgin birth? Resurrection? No one is supposed to take it seriously!!!

Well I don't GrimmaTheNome. I think before people go confirming their prejudices they ought to get up to date and they need to study the subject before they make such mindbogglingly stupid assertions that Noah built an ark and that 'All things Bright and Beautiful' has the poor man at his gate! I will have to stop reading such drivel!

Ah well, I'm 49 and did sing 'Onward Christian Soldiers' - at school rather than at Sunday school. And all sorts of other hymns that start off sounding quite charming but really are very non-PC.

Having seen the evolution of the church for myself doesn't in the least help convince me that it has anything much to do with Eternal Truth.

Well so did I Grimma, being older than that, but I can assure you that it has never once been sung in any school that I have been in, since I started teaching. I doubt if you would recognise Sunday school. Things move on!!! Beliefs and ideas move on!

Congrtulations Tinnitus on your eloquent countering of all the silly religious arguments. Atheism is more as deserving of respect as any religion. I am lucky enough to be educating my daughter until she is 7 in France, where state education is reigorously secular. However, we'll be back in the UK at a state primary when she's 7.5. I am not looking forward to the effects of a CofE education.

Maybe the like-minded of us here should campaign to separate church and education?

Beliefs and ideas move on!

Of course. Because they are an evolving human phenomenon. If they were really grounded in eternal truth they shouldn't.

Thing is Picesemoon, The whole thing is based on stories that don't add up. not one word of it makes any sense. and the reason for that is the number of re translation and the slash and burn editing in the fourth century and beyond.

Don't forget that Council of Nicaea in 325ad. held a vote and ONLY then was Jesus considered divine. It is a claim neither He nor his followers made until then. so we can see that what we are told is the "literal word of god" is very much the word of man. the whole thing has been distorted to the point that some people think the Jews were responsible for Jesus' death. I mean, seriously, Crucifixion was a ROMAN punishment used only for sedition. NOT infringement of holy law.

My point is that you can pick away the stories in the bible that don't make any sense and you are left with a hardback cover and an index. if faith is bound up with these tales then you can see, I'm sure, that it is fair comment to place the burden of proof on those who believe. and those of us who don't have every right to ask "where is your evidence?"

Yes, societies adapt religion to suit their thoughts at the time. That's kinda the worrying thing.

ANother reason to despise religion, really, Cider - all religions were made up by someone or other, and it's unfortunate but true that the people who make up religions are always con artists or nutters ( just like all the new-variant cult leaders are always getting cuaght with one hand in the till and the other in an unwilling and vulnerable parishioner's knickers). Religions are about a) benefiting the priest class and b) controlling everyone else.

Thank you CowWatcher, good luck after the move.

I really think you should study the subject before you start making comments. I don't think that you have the least understanding of how and why the Bible was written. I'm not surprised that people equate it to little green fairies -it would do if you take it literally. I haven't studied it so I really can't say, but I have a feeling that a theologian would be rolling around the floor in mirth at the misconceptions on here-if they weren't too depressed by it all!

I agree SGB, but if I were living in the slums of Brazil I would like to think that God would have a place for me after death. I have no idea if religion caused their poverty, I think not.

I do not, never have, never will believe in God. I do think there's a place for religion in some people's lives. I would never have married anyone who believed in God and hope my children don't, but I am not going to indoctrinate them into atheism.(not sure if those ideas work together)

Ahem, I have a theology degree.....

The bible, or at least the new testament, was not written it was compiled, and then heavily edited by people with an agenda.

The old testament was a history book and was not edited so much. tell me, should I take the story of gods indiscriminate genocide in the flood as an allegory, analogy or actual truth? perhaps the murder of all the first born sons (babies) in Egypt is just poetic license? allowing the earth to swallow those who would not follow Moses is an overstatement? do you remember what happened to the citizens of Jericho after "the walls came crumbling down?" every man woman and child was butchered on the orders of and for the glory of God, but was that just over doing it? I could go on but you get the jist. The god you have so much faith in is a genocidal maniac who never gets tired of wholesale slaughter.

The devil on the other hand stand accused of handing out fruit and telling any one who will listen that God is a wrong 'un.

Your faith must be quite something....

coldtits - interesting that you consider that the proof of the existance of DNA is sonehow meaningful in proving the non-existance of a God. Are you aware of Dr Francis Collins? He was director of the Human Genome Project - it is only a slight exageration to say he is "Mr DNA" as has discovered much of the DNA footprint. BTW - he is a Christian.

Tinnitus - interesting view on the whole history of the brining together of the Bible. "Slash and Burn" is one way of looking at it, but one might consider it to be a group of people reviewing the written evidence and trying to come up with something that was a consensus. I am sure there were mistakes and some bits were omitted which may have helped, but I don't think your emotive description is necessarily helpful.

Your reference to the use of crucifixion is noted. But doesn't the Bible reflect this? If you read the scriptures it makes it quite clear that High Priests took Jesus before the Roman leaders because they knew they didn't have the authority to call for his death. Furthermore, it covers the fact that charges were then drummed up. Pilate himself was unconvinced ofJesus' guilt but 'bottled it'.

And as for the many who call for education to be secular - I disagree (and therefore disagree with my minister who would like education to be a religion free zone). If we can teach the different beliefs that people hold perhaps we can get past people calling another person's belief "twaddle" - not something that is helpful IMO. There is far too much lack of understanding - people believing that Muslims are all suicide bombers, etc.

A little more tolerance would be wonderful. Just too much to hope for.

theoldman - to address just one of your points, I think most posters here would agree that education about the major world faiths is a good thing, and is actually necessary in the understanding of many other subjects.

That is surely perfectly compatible with a secular education system though?

@ Theoldman

Might help if you read the whole thread before you jumped in.

The priest didn't have the authority to stone Jesus because he hadn't committed a religious crime. he had failed to oppose the romans on tax (render unto Ceaser) and the priests were furious. they took him before the local Governor and demanded he be put to death but Pilate could find no crime. in fact here was a popular figure head who wasn't out to stir up trouble. so he would have been OK if he hadn't said he was king of the Jews. that kind of did for him and the priests insisted he be flogged and crucified for sedition.

So yes, Pilate was all for bottling it, but in the end he was killed by the Romans. not the Jews. and the Bible makes no mention of the fact it takes up to two weeks to die on a cross, so that might explain the resurrection.

Also, NOBODY is calling for ALL education to be secular. I suggest you go and read the thread title.