to shop someone who is screwing the benefits system?

[ilikeyoursleeves]

Not sure what to do here but this situation is making me increasingly angry. My sister and her DP don't work and both are taking the benefits system for a complete ride. My sister has barely ever worked consistently (she usually lasts a few months before she chucks it), even though she is totally capable of it. My parents have doled her out lots of times and now she is with her DP who pays for everything (from money he mainly gets from his mum, even though he is in his mid 40's). My sister however continues to claim benefits and apparantly has kept on her old council flat and gets income that way (I have no idea how though, I only heard that through her DP when they had temporarily separated last year). She has that benefits entitlement syndrome going on eg, I asked her if she was returning to work after her having her DD and her reply was 'Why should I?'.

Her DP has been off his work for months now with a 'shoulder & back injury' that he got from working on roadworks. He has applied for compensation and says he is hoping to get at least £100k . If his injury was 100% genuine then fair enough, but for months he has been doing manual work on the sly, throwing his DD up in the air, doing housework and apparantly he is now working on a building site for cash in hand! He gloats all the time that his court case is coming up and how much money he might get, with a wink as he knows he is taking the system for a ride.

I have been an honest taxpayer for my whole working life and TBH I am getting to seething point about my sister and her DP. DH and I work, and have always worked, and I just think why are we doing this while others squeeze the state dry when they don't need to! I just think it would be so unfair if they get money that would take us years to earn, from them talking absolute bullshit and being totally dishonest.

So I am tempted so say something to someone but don't know who.

What do you think I should do?

Because she's openly told her sister that she's taking it.

I wasn't thinking of old ladies walking round with money. It'd be in the biscuit tin under their bed!

it was the sisters EX who told the op......a story from a malicious ex.....you'd take his word???

YANNNNBU!

All this cr@pola about "just think of the consequences" is ridiculous, what about the consequences of them and others screwing the system? I.e. this country getting into even more debt, schools closing or being under maintained, taxes increasing, the NHS close to collapse etc etc. The infrastructure of the UK relies on the money being available to maintain it.

This country is teetering on the edge of economic collapse, and gaining money fraudulantly, as they are, is pushing us further in that direction. And who will suffer? Not just us, but our children, and theirs.

If you believe that the country is being brought to its knees by those defrauding the benefits system, you are beyond naive.

It is estimated that £2bn a year is lost to benefit fraud.

Unclaimed benefits in 2007-8 amounted to somewhere between £6.3bn and £10.5bn.

But of course, the financial state of the nation has nothing to do with our defence expenditure or our economy being gambled away by private banks. Oh no. It's the fault of the woman down the road who works, claims benefits and has Sky TV

What tethersend said.

That is the most economic sense I've read on MN!

I also suspect that a fair amount of benefit "fraud" is actually benefit mistake. The system is so bloody complicated. A very close friend of mine actually ended up with a caution - by mistake. She informed one office of her change of circumstances and wrongly assumed that it would filter through to the office in the next room....

Don't get me wrong, some people do try and cheat the system but is not the big problem people make it out to be.

I wouldn't shop anyone, ever. The state screws over the little people enough as it is. Sod it.

tethersend - do you really think that I believe that the state of this nation is purely down to benefit fraud?? If I indeed did, then I would clearly be very naive.

But how do you distinguish between different causes? So, because of the fact that benefit fraud doesn't have the same impact as, lets say, our defence budget, it should be ignored? I suggest that you are naive for not looking at the bigger picture.

"tethersend - do you really think that I believe that the state of this nation is purely down to benefit fraud??"

I am only going on your previous post, Katya:

"what about the consequences of them and others screwing the system? I.e. this country getting into even more debt, schools closing or being under maintained, taxes increasing, the NHS close to collapse etc etc. The infrastructure of the UK relies on the money being available to maintain it."

Perhaps you would like to retract it?

I know what they are doing is wrong but she's your sister don't do it.

Oh, only £2bn a year, well, hardly worth worrying about, then! Except that's about £100 per household in Britain. And that doesn't count the add on cost of all the other benefits that fraudulant claiming gives people access to - free dental treatment, free prescriptions and free eye care.

AND that's just the people they catch. Given that they have about 4000 people employed to catch fraudsters amongst nearly 6 million claimants, I'm guessing they just might not be able to catch them all! And even if there isn't a single further fraudster out there quietly siphoning off our cash, what about those who feel that it is perfectly OK never to work or make any kind of contribution because they are 'entitled' to get benefits.

As a nation we have to look at 'entitlement' culture very carefully. The government pays out in benefits MORE than it takes in via income tax. (£164 billion compared to £140 billion)Now even if you think that every pound of that is going to worthy cases who deserve your tax money, you don't have to be an accountant to work out that it simply cannot be sustained at this level.

And if everyone is perfectly happy for benefit cheats to take their money, I'd like my £100 back this year and will be round to take it out of your handbags. And you can't shop me because you will be responsible for the upset it would cause my kids.

Do people think that the crumbling economy is down to the benefit fraudsters? I certainly don't.

Much as I do blame the bankers, there isn't anything the average Joe can do about them. But they can, if they choose to, do something about somebody fraudulently claiming benefits - they are a criminal after all.

Anyway, I think the reason people get so miffed by benefit fraud is more the principle of it than any wider effect on the economy.

Well done, Tanga. It's quite a feat to overlook the amount of unclaimed benefits in your post. Because obviously, that money just sits there waiting to be claimed and is not in any way absorbed back into the economy

"AND that's just the people they catch." No, it's not. It's quite clearly an estimate of the total amount lost.

TBH, I'm not sure I have the energy for this tonight. Go ahead, shop your neighbours- after all, it's their fault you don't have everything you want.

again tethersend, have you looked at the bigger picture - of which this is a part of?

Haven't read the whole thread. But I think you should certainly shop them.

The benefits rules are there to ensure that the limited benefits funds available go to those who need it most. Ok the rules aren't perfect but they are the best we have.

Since funds are limited, any money that is overclaimed is coming out of someone else's pocket - quite possibly someone who needs the money more but isn't as canny about claiming.

So the OP doesn't know what benefits her sister is on...so she may not be claiming any.

She doesn't know what her sisters DP's injuries are supposed to be, so her accusations are unfounded, and he may be doing nothing wrong.

She heard some gossip from her sisters dp, when her sister and him had had a huge fall out about her sister possibly, maybe sub-letting her council flat.

So basically the OP knows nothing and is making everything up making some huge assumptions based on her hatred for her sister.

In fact her hatred for her sister is the only thing we really know is fact.

Katya, that is meaningless rhetoric. It's embarrassing.

It is tough to do, but it is tough love. Shop them now and they stand some chance of getting through it all and coming out better people. Be strong, but be compassionate in the inevitable aftermath.

God this is making me mad...the OP doesn't have a leg to stand on. She doesn't actually know if any fraud is taking place.

Op did say she doesn't know what's being claimed...... But she wants to shop them for the compensation, which they haven't got yet

sounds like jealousy....

Would be different if she named the benefits as they are all so different and assessed in different ways for different things.......but she can't!

I'd never report someone especially if I knew them. It wouldn't even cross my mind.

Yes, tethersend, you are right, it is an estimate - based on the amount of fraud they uncover (can you explain how else they mightcome up with an estimate other than picking figures out of the air?)

I'm not alone, I'm sure, in only responding to one point in a post (you yourself entirely ignore the issue that we simply cannot afford to go on paying the level of benefits we do)

However, on the unclaimed benefits front, I'm not absolutely sure of your logic. Are you saying that it is OK for £2bn a year to be stolen because the gov thinks there are poeple not claiming money they are entitled to? (And despite this strange idea that somehow a pensioner shivering with cold because they are too proud to claim pension credit means it is OK for a benefit cheat to buy himself a new telly, we still can't afford the benefit bill!)

Interestingly, it is JSA that has the poorest take-up. The gov thinks that a certain number of people are not working and are entitled to money that they are not claiming. Now I may be a cynical old s*d, but is it possible that some of those people aren't claiming because they are, in fact, working at hooky jobs in the black economy but don't claim JSA as well?

It would never cross my mind either..but to shop a member of your own family.wow how low is that

"you yourself entirely ignore the issue that we simply cannot afford to go on paying the level of benefits we do"

I ignore the issue because it is conjecture dressed up as fact. It's not true. We can.

I honestly cannot have this debate with you, Tanga. It's too depressing, and it seems like your views are so entrenched and naive that it will end up in pages and pages of disagreement that I just don't have the stomach for tonight.

As long as those with the least in our society are pitted against one another, the government is happy and doesn't have to answer uncomfortable questions about poverty in one of the richest nations in the world. But what do I know? I'm ignoring the bigger picture

As a nation, we can afford to pay more in benefits than we take in via income tax? Seriously? With what? And given that debt interest will exceed £58 billion in three years time?

No wonder you are depressed, embarrassed and exhausted - arguing against reality can have that effect on a person. I'm not convinced that the government is happy, nor do I think that working people - ordinary families - who flog their pans out every week and put their kids in childcare and stick to a budget and have to be careful and go camping instead of to the Costa del Sol - should have to pay in taxes for criminals (lets not forget the £27 million in benefits paid to criminals actually in prison still claiming fraudulaently) and those who have decided that working and contributing to society just isn't their scene.

I'm not forcing you, or anyone else to have this debate. It isn't going to go away. It's not a question of 'those with the least' being 'pitted against one another' like some kind of huge mean conspiracy theory, it's a question of what to do about the vast majority of people who contribute something to our society (whether it is financially in taxes or investment by raising children or doing volunteer work) who cannot afford to carry the burden of those who don't choose to contribute anything but feel entitled to be supported. And on top of that, people who steal from us all.

We no longer live in Sherwood Forest or medieval england. Benefit cheats are not robbing the rich to benefit the downtrodden poor. My family were immigrants and arrived in this country with nothing, and worked their backsides off to be able to have a better life. I absolutely understand the idea of social responsibility and taking care of people who genuinely find themselves in need through no fault of their own, and I'm sure that applies to everyone who has posted against the idea of benefit fraud on this thread.

But I am 'naive' and I obviously don't understand the plight of 'those with the least' in our society who are forced by the happy government to steal and cheat and swindle to make ends meet (rather than study, budget, earn and sacrifice) I can only hope that the poor noble burglar picks on your house next time, where you will graciously allow him or her to rummage through your valuables to make up for his deprived life, rather than mine in which I would physically fight to protect what I damn well worked hard to earn for my kids.

You have assumed so much in your last post, it is breathtaking. I cannot argue with you because you've no idea how to. Try refuting my points rather than blathering on incoherently about 'ordinary families' and 'taxpayers'.

"But I am 'naive' and I obviously don't understand the plight of 'those with the least' in our society who are forced by the happy government to steal and cheat and swindle to make ends meet (rather than study, budget, earn and sacrifice) I can only hope that the poor noble burglar picks on your house next time, where you will graciously allow him or her to rummage through your valuables to make up for his deprived life, rather than mine in which I would physically fight to protect what I damn well worked hard to earn for my kids."

1. I don't understand where you got any of those points from; I didn't make a single one of them (save for my assertion that you are naive).

1. Did you just wish burglary on me? Seriously?

Not only are you utterly naive and blinkered, turns out you are spiteful too.

If you argue by wishing ill on those with different views to you, then expect to lose, frequently.

you will probably find that he is already being investigated by the company he is claiming against and i wouldn't be surprised if they have passed the info onto the DWP who will be conducting a parallel investigation. Personally i wouldn't hesistate to report them.

i am a single parent currently not working becase some health issues my DS2 had when he was born made it impossible for me to return to my job. I have worked since i was 16 years old and paid my NI and tax contributions and not being able to work for the last 3 years has almost driven me nuts. Thankfully DS2 is now fit and healthy and as soon as he starts school next August i will be returning to my job.

The people who cheat the benefits system make it so much harder for legitimate claiments to get the money they are entitled to.