to consider myself a feminist whilst also liking to wear makeup and be attractive (to men)?

[kittycat37]

I was watching that BBC 4 'Women' programme and it was suggested that considering oneself a feminist and wanting to wear makeup/wear clothes that emphasise femininity were somehow contradictory.

I honestly feel I can be a feminist and also want to emphasise my feminity through makeup / clothes. AIBU?

YANBU, there is much more to feminism than that. It's natural for men and women to want to be attractive to each other. I draw the line at painful beauty procedures - my feelings about waxing are that if a doctor did something that painful to you, you think it was an unreasonable level of pain. But women are perfectly happy to put up with it in the pursuit of beauty! No man would put him through that much physical pain to be attractive to women.

(plus I hate letting it grow ready for the next wax)

I wouldn't wax either. Fear mainly.
But on that programme the interviewer said to a young woman 'by wearing makeup and the clothes that you do (i.e. feminine/trendy) aren't you objectifying yourself?'
I don't get that line of argument.

Mind you I don get the 'I think being a lap dancer / glamour model (or looking like one )is REALLY EMPOWERING' argument either.

Well I think men look totally hot in a really well-cut suit and I think a lot of women would agree with me. But men aren't objectifying themselves by dressing like that.

I think if you dress so that all someone can see when they look at you is sex, basically, then yes you are objectifying yourself. And it doesn't make you powerful in the slightest.

Cheers for replying Brahms - have realised am way too tired to have started this thread and must sleep immediately,

P.S. Loving your piano sonatas.

No prob, nighty night

P.P.S.S. totally agree re: men in suits (well cut)

Gieves and Hawkes, om nom nom

I love it when DH wears a suit - it makes me want to mess him up

To me being a feminist is knowing that women are, and should be, equal to men. I don't have to wear sackcloth and have a dirty face to prove it.
On the other hand, acting all pornographic all the time is fucked-up, not empowering.

yanbu

I think the interviewer was asking those questions just as way of opening up some of the issues.

I am a feminist and like to take care of my appearance/look attractive/wear make-up etc.

I know some feminists don't, fair enough.

Maybe worth posting over on the feminism topic?

YANBU . I would consider myself a sex-positive feminist.

I thought the programme-making was dreadfully biased - asking parents where their child-rearing went wrong (to have produced a feminist) - filming the Mum in the kitchen - suggesting make-up is off message - running yards of footage of them discussing the preparation of the food for the conference - the producers/editors should be ashamed.

YANBU

I remember a conversation I had with some girlfriends back in university and they were shocked and apalled that I would consider taking my (at the time, hypothetical) husband's name after marriage. I felt very stupid and unenlightened.

But then one of my friends (actually the most active feminist of the lot) jumped to my defense, saying that the feminist movement is about freedom of choice, and that we should celebrate our differences (name-changing/name-keeping, makeup/no makeup, waxed/unwaxed, career women/home makers) and not just put ourselves into a NEW box with strict rules (name-keeping/no makeup/unwaxed/career women) because that's the only way to be proud feminists.

Phew. Sorry about the long-winded comment.

One last thing: I had another friend who got married a few years ago. Her surname was Marshall and his was Stevens. They BOTH changed it to Marshens and had an extraterrestrial-themed wedding. Was great fun.

Petunia that is great! I SO don't buy the "let's double-barrell it" argument. IMHE (with ONE honourable exception) it is always the WOMAN who double-barrels, the man carries along happily with his original name.

I thought the "you can't be a feminist and wear make up" argument went out with the Ark? Though I expect the DM keeps it alive.

Silver. Happy to be a feminist, happy to bring up baby feminists.

It was suggested by the (apparently non-feminist) interviewer, of course, not the feminists on the programme, just in case anyone is reading this and thinks it is somehow the standard feminist position that you can't be a feminist and wear make-up.

Apparently I'm only feminist in winter then when my legs are hairy as hell

Phew - glad the comments here show I'm not the only one wearing makeup but wanting to support the sisterhood. But perhaps a bit weirdly I have a sort of (random) check list of what feels 'ok' with my feminist leanings and what does not. E.g:

highlights in hair - ok
fake tan - not ok
fake nails - not ok
heels - some ok, some definitely not ok
short skirts - ok if sort of punky/ironic - not ok if 'sexy sexy'
push up bras - not ok
tummy control knickers - not ok
figure hugging clothes - ok (if not 'sexy sexy')
teeth whitening - not ok
waxing - not ok
shaving - ok
knee high boots - ok

I wouldn't judge anyone else by this list - it's purely a self imposed thing and I don't know where it comes from - for some reason a certain amount of artifice feels ok and beyond a certain point I think it would feel like abasement. But I keep wondering if the things I feel 'ok' about are just the result of conditioning and being brain washed over years by advertising etc My female muslim inlaws (from Algeria) say they are appalled when they come to the by UK advertising they see as really oppressive to women. Hmmmmmmm, sorry rambling a bit now...

YANBU

Interesting list, Kittycat- I would make a different judgement from you on several of those, which just goes to show that there's no wrong/ right.

Definitely think that it's all about choice. Wearing make-up is (IMO) absolutely fine but feeling that you can't step out of the house without it, or looking down on other women for not wearing make-up is not feminist.

YANBU to want to dress the way you want and have sex with men as and when you want.
You might BU to a) criticize other women who don't want to wear make-up or 'attractive clothes' and YADBU if you think it's OK to say things like 'I'd love to give you a makeover' or 'There's no need to wear dungarees and be hairy to be a feminist' to women who have chosen the hair-and-dungarees option.
Though YADNBU if you find it annoying to be told by other women that you can't be a proper feminist because you have nail varnish on. There are some (not very many) feminists who say things like that, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are right.

I think one of the few times I have really cross on MN was a thread suggesting that women who didn't groom themselves in certain way were revolting. I think it was meant to be light-hearted, but it didn't come across that way. There were too many responses along the lines of 'yes it's completely gross, why can't people just make the effort?'. So, afaic, pluck your pubes, paint your earlobes, perfume your fanny, do whatever you feel makes you look good, but don't please don't judge other women for not giving a toss.

Thanks

absolutely Orm.

Nah, the entire point of feminism is choice. We all have the choice to aspire to look like Jordan, wear dungarees or anything else we bloody well want.

SolidGoldBrass 'I'd love to give you a makeover' = one of the most creepy phrases ever uttered by one woman to another in the history of the world IMO

OrmRenewed - absolutely - I'm just worried about why I feel the need to do the things that I do (in terms of wearing makeup)- part of me would love to just fuck it all off and not give a toss - I feel like it is the weak socially conditioned part that succumbs to some weird pressure that I don't necessarily like.

don't many women dress for other women, anyway ?

don't many women dress for other women, anyway ?