In thinking we don't actually need Men to diminish, bully, abuse and curtail our rights as women when we seem capable of doing it between ourselves.

[MitsubishiWarrioress]

To be honest, I am fairly subdued on Mumsnet and avoid AIBU. My life philosophy gets me through pretty well without a great deal of confrontation and I mostly achieve what I need and want with major organisations, banks etc with this attitude.

The cheer to fight on MN, (which IS in my opinion, a slice of life, and not just words on a screen (an excuse which seems to be used increasingly to make offensive and inflammatory comments)), seems to be cried almost daily.

The thick vein of Misandry overwhelms and alarms me, and it concerns me that we are raising boys with such negative opinions of their own sex that it is almost inevitable that bad behaviour and treatment of women will follow because, they have such low expectations of themselves within society.

This argument is often used to excuse women making bad choices, and yet is not applicable to men in a lot of instances.

I think there should be far less focus on the feminism aspect of equality and a drive to aspire to greater humanity.

I was bullied consistantly through school, by girls 95% of the time, and I do not hold that this was primarily as a result of male pressure.
The truth is, that some women are not very nice, just as with some men.

I have witnessed posters making quiet comments about something they have done for their men, but avoiding the general site because of the flaming they will get.

So that is 'choice' is it?

Apologising for admitting they are happy with their lot because they will be accused of 'smugness'. I have lost the count of how many times such a post will prompt the [vom] response.

I have nothing against debate, 'cheery' banter, and the passion with which differences of opinions are often aired, but sometimes the vitriolic attacks on fellow women is perhaps just as indicative of the undermining of our own sex as many of the issues in society. Because I presume not many posters have men standing over their shoulders telling them what to type.

I despair. I really do.

examples please? particularly of 'quiet comments about something they have done for their men'? why on earth would that get flamed? don't understand a lot of your points tbh.

i frankly doubt that feminists are the women attacking other women on here, tbh.

Some men are nice; some aren't.

Some women are nice; some aren't.

'tis the way of things. Don't worry about it, you'll get tummyache.

not following you at all, sorry.

PS - if you're that non-confrontational shouldn't your nickname be something like FluffyKitten, and not reference large four-wheel-drive vehicles and fearsome armed women?

"I think there should be far less focus on the feminism aspect of equality and a drive to aspire to greater humanity"

yes i like this.

No. I will not give example of those sort of posts because it is not for me to reveal someone elses thoughts. But I have seen it.

I am not getting a tummy ache. I am observing the current trends on MN and the fact that a lot of people do seem to be though.

But it seems there might be a lot of people on MN that do seem to be, and a lack of personal responsibility that women have a role to play also in.

My point is not that 'feminists' are attacking each other...but that women are.

Couldn't agree more Mitsubishi, that it's unpleasant to see people out for a fight, but on here people will say things they wouldn't say in real life - it's not something I would do, if I wouldn't say it anywhere else I wouldn't say it on mumsnet.

Sympathise about the bullying at school, I was bullied at work by women, couldn't agree more they are not always very nice, as are some men.

You're finding a women against women attitude on here, I agree with alle that genuine feminists with a notion of 'sisterhood' wouldn't be doing that.

but lots of mners are really great adn supportive to each other. i don't think the occassional bitch fest cancels that out.

i have never felt bullied on here, if someone gets all aggressive i just go adn do something else.

Gah.. (phone rang)

That women have a personal responsibility for their own actions and behaviour and some are sometimes very quick to hide behind wider issues to defend their own failings.

why teh hmm?

"wider issues" can you expand on that Mitsubishi?

yyy, to a negative attitude to men on here

I understand, I feel there is "pressure" from other women on myself in all areas of my life. Women judge...including me, though we all (say we don't) try not to.

My home has to be kept clean...not only because I "like" it that way but because I am aware of the negative response/perception from other women of me not taking care of my home/not being able to cope.

My relationship is under scrutiny with questions of what dh has/hasn't done with the kids/me/house/work etc. If I admit to getting the kids ready for bed all the time while dh spends 30mins on the computer after working 12hours, I am told to force him to do it...seriously, I don't expect him to do it...maybe read them a story/play/cuddle but I only work one day at the weekend so I expect to do most of the practical tasks.

For some reason I am expected to remember birthdays, christmas pressies etc and I am the one who gets moaned at if forgotten...although women in my life and DH expect this!

There is a whole lot of judgement about parenting styles/ diet/education etc and in my experience it is not coming from the fathers.

once the basics are covered I try to do the baking/arts and crafts/home made meals etc but I always wonder....after the fun descends into crying children and fuming parent...WTF am I doing this for...is it for my kids/myself or so other mums think I am a good parent.

Women are our own worst enemies..they are also our greatest friends and support though.

I do think it can be easy to forget that there are real people behind the writing. I posted on one of the Victoria Coren threads in a very negative way and when she came on read them and apologised I was very upset with myself. It's not very nice to have a bunch of women calling you a twat and other crude names. It was an eye opener for me and I would never do it again, I'm very at myself. I was bullied at (boarding) schoool which was horrible and I don't see how I acted was any different, I felt very funny and clever at the time. I've been reminded of this on a few threads really which do seem to have a feel of ganging up and bullying someone in what probably feels like a clever and fun way, forgetting the person can read everything that is being said.

I have three boys, and at school boys are equally able to upset each other in this wa too though. (and at home, grrr)

I hope this makes sense, I'm a science geek and not very good at writing as coherently as the rest of you!

I think what you say on MN is as much a reflection of who you are as in RL GT, I am sorry.

And if one is prone to stirring up trouble on an internet site because it is too easy to hide behind a screen, then that is a part of who you are.

I completely agree that there is an amazing core of support on here BO. I really do. Sometimes it takes my breathe away. But there is also a vein of 'bitchyness' that IMO isn't acceptable and can't be justified because of that.

I like you would go somewhere else if someone is getting aggressive, but I find there are a lot of occasions when that is the case. Which indicates that women are every bit as capable of being intimidating and controlling and disrespectful of others as so so many threads express about men. And I am not referring to the relationships thread where obviously some very painful experiences are being discussed.

I totally agree and think anyone who bandies about the old chestnut'if women ruled the world there would be no wars' needs to spend 10 minutes on Mumsnet!

'wider issues'.... That there are times when some posters will admit to having done something that is unacceptable and the thread will turn and it will be a blokes fault.

The gender issue is raised by some posters...that if a man had made a certain post he would be flamed.... and whilst yes, there will be relevant advice, there is an enormous imbalance between what seems to be acceptable/excusable in a woman's behaviour and a man's. This is frequently observed.

The overwhelming posts about MIL's is also indicative of the role that women play in undermining their own sex. There are fewer threads about FiL's, if any really. My exH never expected me to remember birthdays but my exMiL frequently undermined me as a mother and a wife.

I don't understand some of your references (sorry, can I blame paint fumes?), but agree with those I do.

Especially the "I think there should be far less focus on the feminism aspect of equality and a drive to aspire to greater humanity."

Feminism on it's own is good and right, but the word is often used as an excuse for bad behaviour. It really annoys me when someone will want people to back up their bad choices against men, and then throw a hissy fit in a "oh, I thought we're all women here" / "what happened to the sisterhood" (hate that one especially!) fashion.

Kind of my point SFON, and yet the debates about the subjugation of women has us all as victims, joined by a sisterhood of common struggle against men.

Societies projections of how men behave is just as damaging as those of women and yet little seems to be done to address this, which is horrendous given the blame that men shoulder.

I'm not sure I understand the point.

Is about threads where someone says "my DH is crap he sisn't do the hoovering" and everyone says "yes men are shit at hoovering"?

I see you're not talking about the relationships threads.

Can you give examples of what you mean - you don't have to be specific?

Or is it that you are angry with women for slagging each other off on here?

They are two different things I think?

Your past post - you want people not to talk about things in society where there are imbalances?

I'm not sure I'm getting you, please can you be more specific.

I think I get you. I think. Plus I know why you are a big aggressive car and NOT a little dainty name!

Keep posting and explaining because I think I get you but not 100pc sure.

I do sometimes worry about way casual sexism against men seems to have become acceptable in some areas.

But I get uneasy when people say something about women not needing men to run them down. One implication is that it's men's natural role to have a go at women; another is that women ought to stick together as a group, right or wrong. Neither of these are very positive concepts, imo.

I am completely unbothered by the way that Mumsnet reflects how people behave irl. You can always ask for intervention if it goes too far. I think some of the bitchiness helps define the boundaries of what is acceptable for us all, so I prefer this process of discussion than despair that we can't all just get along.

I had an interesting cross-cultural insight yesterday from a male Mexican friend who until recently lived with his wife and baby in the UK.

He told me what happened when his Mexican wife had a recent lunch with other female Mexican friends. All the women (except his wife) spent most of lunch tearing apart another woman who was not at the lunch.

Their main criticism was that this woman allowed her husband to work from home. Apparently, in Mexico a man working from home (i.e not going to an office downtown) is regarded as a waster and other women will routinely judge other women who allow their man to do this. My friend explained that most women there regard it as their job to run the home and that the man must be seen to be going out to work by other women.

He asked if that would happen in the UK. I explained it was more likley to be the opposite that a man would be criticised for not helping around the house - even if he went out to work - and his wife would likely be criticised by other women for allowing that state of affairs to exist.

Cultural norms expressed by women (and men) vary across the world and are not unique to MN.

Quite rightly, the relationship between the sexes needs to be balanced, although I suspect on both sides, there are individuals who will never see this, but I am deeply concerned that the level of respect shown to each other doesn't reflect how we want to be treated.

And I am sorry, I am not willing to accept that this is purely a reflection of the gender issue.

It is fine to say that a level of bitchness defines the boundaries of what is acceptable for us all, to some if it works, but really? Is that how we define things? And it seems to gain more and more prevalence in society, Soaps, dramas, game shows....radio, and the more it prevails, the more it becomes the norm. And we wonder why society is in such a high level of tension..

What about defining boundaries with dignity and integrity. I know we are all different, (thank god) but it seems to me that accepting the infighting normalises it.

I have to go out.....