In thinking we don't actually need Men to diminish, bully, abuse and curtail our rights as women when we seem capable of doing it between ourselves.

[MitsubishiWarrioress]

To be honest, I am fairly subdued on Mumsnet and avoid AIBU. My life philosophy gets me through pretty well without a great deal of confrontation and I mostly achieve what I need and want with major organisations, banks etc with this attitude.

The cheer to fight on MN, (which IS in my opinion, a slice of life, and not just words on a screen (an excuse which seems to be used increasingly to make offensive and inflammatory comments)), seems to be cried almost daily.

The thick vein of Misandry overwhelms and alarms me, and it concerns me that we are raising boys with such negative opinions of their own sex that it is almost inevitable that bad behaviour and treatment of women will follow because, they have such low expectations of themselves within society.

This argument is often used to excuse women making bad choices, and yet is not applicable to men in a lot of instances.

I think there should be far less focus on the feminism aspect of equality and a drive to aspire to greater humanity.

I was bullied consistantly through school, by girls 95% of the time, and I do not hold that this was primarily as a result of male pressure.
The truth is, that some women are not very nice, just as with some men.

I have witnessed posters making quiet comments about something they have done for their men, but avoiding the general site because of the flaming they will get.

So that is 'choice' is it?

Apologising for admitting they are happy with their lot because they will be accused of 'smugness'. I have lost the count of how many times such a post will prompt the [vom] response.

I have nothing against debate, 'cheery' banter, and the passion with which differences of opinions are often aired, but sometimes the vitriolic attacks on fellow women is perhaps just as indicative of the undermining of our own sex as many of the issues in society. Because I presume not many posters have men standing over their shoulders telling them what to type.

I despair. I really do.

"Did you SILs friend decide not to access medical or police assistance as they were concerned that they would not be taken seriously, I wonder."

"This glass cellar business, what about the millions of women doing cleaning, caring, other minimum paid roles? To argue that men corner the market on crappy low paid jobs is preposterous. "

excellent points by ImSoNotTelling

I don't think women necessarily fall away higher up the ladder because of men's dominance. Let's not give them all the credit. Women can make choices too.

Really haven't had time to catch up but I have read some very interesting posts.

Milly , you are absolutely right, and I think I put somewhere that I very rarely frequent AIBU, I believe unquestionably in the right of it being there.

I can understand that my decision not to quote or refer directly to posters, but I have never the less encountered a high rate of posters not on AIBU saying 'I wouldn't put this on broader MN but...'

These are not outrageous points of view, but parenting and relationship choices. And it does make me , that posters feel that way.

My thoughts on feminism are muddled, unclear and unhelpful, (bugger!) and don't help my posts but having come across it frequently on MN recently, whilst making the above observations, felt that the two were out of kilter, but my linking of the two is unfair and on no real basis.

WubblyBubbly, I think your post is excellent.

And ISNT, your point about Ads portraying men as powerful and successful is exactly my point about the role models for youngsters. Just as we are influenced by the portrayal of women in the press, (especially teenage girls), so then are boys of the same age. If those are the images being pumped at them, isn't it any wonder that that is what they aspire to.

And women's magazines do nothing to redress this, for they choose advertising that perpetuates the whole image. Why? If it is so strong in our society why both print articles promoting equality and accept advertising that nullifies them?

I have one side of my family that so strongly supports the advancement of women it is outstanding. I have an Aunt that is highly respected in a very male dominated field. She is the only woman specialist in one area of her subject in the UK. The wives of two cousins are also in respected jobs, in high positions, and the wives of their sons, are also in strong positions as young women. Most of them also have families.
In that side of the family, the females hold a very rare position, the honouring and cherishing of them as mothers and females (courtesy and old fashioned values towards women are very strong) without putting them on pedestals, and backing them to the hilt in life choices. I don't know why it works so strongly for them.

My DSS is currently putting the pursuit of his career on hold while his partner gains the qualifications that she needs, so that they can remain in the same area together.

I don't think poor poor men. But I do question why, if so much is going there way, why do

these statistics exist?

The disparity in the UK figures is alarming. Do you not think that is an indication that maybe there is something deeper where men are concerned than the surface issues of them being dominant?

That maybe they are not as happy with their roles in society as we are led to believe?

Yes that's where it gets a bit complex probonbon. I agree with you that women make choices that they know will adversely impact their pay in order to give themselves a different work/life balance to the usual 9-5 thing. I have done it myself.

However I would prefer if there was more flexibility between full time high paid kick arse career job vs low pay part time understanding about school hours role. There seems to be so little in the middle. I do think this is changing though - my friends who work in the public sector seem to have quite good options in terms of working from home, going part time, flexible hours, compressed hours, and these things benefit the men as well, and they are able to access them if they want.

My experience in the private sector ie part time = fuck off may colour my views on the world of employment. I think things vary hugely in different industries, and that things are gradually changing for the better. There is another issue that being part time damages prospects, but for now I would be happy with people simply being able to continue in their jobs and work flexibly/part time (unless it would scupper the business, obviously), not be forced out and down to the bottom of the heap again.

People who argue that this constitutes a woman making an active choice are talking rubbish really. I moved from a high paid career job to something part time for half the salary. I did so as I did not want to be away from home from 7.30-6.30 or more while my child was small. Yes I made that choice - but it wasn't a full and free choice. In an ideal world I would have gone part time in my old job. Or got an equivalent job part time. It wasn't really a "choice" IYSWIM. Yet I make up the stats of "women who aren't motivated by money or success and just want a little job near home to keep them ticking over". Nonsense.

MW yes the suicide rate is alarming.

However looking at the figures for our neighbours, our rates seem to be lower (I only glanced, at france, germany, ireland, sweden, denmark, iceland, finland)) so that is positive maybe?

I also wonder - have these figures changed dramatically over the years? Men and women deal with depression in different ways - whether that is innate or by socialisation - men tend to do something while young women respond with less drastic things like self harming and anorexia. If the rates have been getting worse then that is something that needs addressing.

If not then maybe we need to look at it in the context of depression across society as a whole, and across young people in general, and see if we can perk them up across the board IYSWIM.

I wil try and see if things are worsening for male suicide rates.

here suicide rates for men and women over the last 15 years or so. Things look fairly stable, or maybe even declining a bit. It doesn't seem like things are getting worse. that's good isn't it? If male suicide rates were shooting up then yes absolutely it would need to be looked at very closely, but that's not happening. And people are concerned about male suicide generally, it is on people's radars IYSWIM.

can I barge in a second? just had a very quick look at those stats- didn't every country have a substantially higher rate for males as females?

I was amazed that there was a single country where women had a higher suicide rate. There was one, China.

fwiw- I am much more worried about my dd's future than my ds.

And everywhere I look (previously as a SAHM, which was more or less forced on me by circumstance- now home edding, which is/was my choice) I see mothers coerced into low paid/ low status jobs to fit round caring for their children/ becoming SAHMs. I don't know of many men in my social circles who have had to make big career concessions once they become dads. And if they do it is presented very much as a choice they've made...

Maybe this is unusual? I really hope so...

Just the one, claig?? blimey!

I don't think that men corner the market on crappy jobs for a minute.. I have done the 'ew' aspects of care work and an currently a cleaner and provide an ironing service, but I doubt the fight for career equality will generate many women into feeling compelled to move into fields that are dangerous, unglamorous or endanger their health.

Of course Rape is abhorrent and inarguably unacceptable, but it's use in the argument about inequality is a difficult one.
And I say that as someone who was both put in a position to be sexually abused at eight, and then ''rescued'' at the last minute when a family member had a change of heart about what was happening.

''suicide rates for men and women over the last 15 years or so. Things look fairly stable, or maybe even declining a bit. It doesn't seem like things are getting worse. that's good isn't it? If male suicide rates were shooting up then yes absolutely it would need to be looked at very closely, but that's not happening. And people are concerned about male suicide generally, it is on people's radars IYSWIM.''

I find this alarming ISNT. Replace the words male suicide for rape of females. Would that statement be POK..well it's not getting any worse so that's OK isn't it? Not in my book.

The figures I showed were from 2009. I know of enough cases in my small area of the world to completely substanciate those figures.

Why is it alarming to say that it is being looked at, people are worried and aware of the problem. But that it's not getting worse, which is positive, and seems to be at a fairly stable level. And that we have lower rates than all of our neighbours, which again is a positive as far as I can see.

Assuming the suicide rate has been at the same rate for years (forever?) then that indicates that a certain proportion of the population will succumb to mental illness to the extent that they take their own lives. As an illness, I think that it is not necessarily anyone's fault that this is happening, I simply try and identify the people with the illness and help them.

Whereas rape is somethgn that one person does to another. And is running at a rate much much higher than 10 in every 100,000.

Why draw parallels between an illness and a crime? I am a bit TBH

Suicide in men is not somethign that is being done to men by someone else. It would be like comparing it to murder. They aren't the same. One just has a victim, one has a victim and a perpetrator. One is about someone in the depths with nowhere to turn, the other is about someone attacking you.

Wouldn't it be more logical to compare the results for different sorts of mental health issues between the sexes, things like eating disorders and self harm, than to draw parallels between a mental health issue and a crime?

MW your other points to me about crappy jobs and so on, I was responding to someone else upthread, not to you. I was trying to point out that her arguments about how our society is just fine were a bit wonky.

I suppose because it is inarguably wrong Dittany. No question. Much of a debate like this is open to opinion, perspective and point of view. Rape is wrong. End of discussion.

However, I still believe strongly that there is a reason for the negative expressions of male aggression. Explaining something is not justifying it. Understanding why I was sexually and emotionally abused doesn't justify it. But I can see that the emotional baggage that one of my exes carried was a driving force behind his appalling treatment of me. Jesus, it was no wonder he was mess. Given up for adoption by a mum that just didn't want him, EA by his adoptive Mum and then he found his birth mother and she rejected him again.

I have understood Dittany from some of your posts that some of the dreadful choices that women make are as a result of gender inequality, the negative stereotyping of women and a long history of many forms of abuse.

I never want to see that man again, he fucked with my head, but what chance did he stand? Or do we somehow shift the blame and make the mothers somehow victims that they would only have been treated like this because a man had made them make wrong decisions.

I have witnessed a young, energetic, intelligent (challenging) boy turn into a violent, abusive, self harming emotional wreck because his emotional needs weren't being met. An earlier post defined how male and female 'victimisation' manifests itself differently, and I think sadly, in a lot of men, emotional turmoil manifests itself as aggression. NO, it doesn't make their behaviour right, but why should men be any more capable of recognising and changing their own behaviour than women are?

Yes, there are monsters, who would be so however they were nurtured but I strongly suspect that a frighteningly large percentage of these men have emotionally unstable backgrounds.

Men may be violent, but by god, women can be cruel beyond comprehension. MN is on the whole mothers who have their children's best interests at heart, but I think there is probably an alarming rate of EA mothers out their who kindly screw their children up before society gets to deal with them. I SEE it Dittany in my own community. A child my sons age gets a measure of sympathy and understanding for the reasons behind his behaviour. Unchecked, he steps into manhood and becomes a violent criminal, and society condemns him without having helped him.

I am not denying anything about the statistics or the factual evidence, but there is also a denial about the fact that there might be a root cause to why some men turn out the way they do, and I have done a lot of reading and research about ''the trouble with boys''. It screams at me that the way to change things is not just to change attitudes towards women, but towards men also.
It is a huge double standard to suggest that women are struggling to make certain choices because of the weight of social expectations but men should just know better.

It is not unreasonable to say that male suicide is being looked at ISNT, but that somehow because it is stable and not getting worse 'that is OK then'.

The parallels between an illness and crime I find IMO obvious. Many people commit crimes that perhaps they wouldn't commit when not affected by stress and mental health issues.
A lighter example is that my mum used to work in a shop where there was a high rate of shop lifting done by middle class menopausal women. Nothing of great value. But they did it, and often used to wet themselves on being discovered to have 'lifted' something worth £2 or £3.

It is a known fact that if a child is shoplifting it can be symptomatic of an underlying issue.

But I didn;t say "that is OK then". I am not sure why you want to insist that I did.

Are you really suggesting that I think it is fine that people commit suicide?

You just seem to be really down on women. When women are horrible, it is because they are women. Maybe their mothers were nasty to them. When men are horrible, it is because their mothers were nasty to them. Society is putting unfair pressure on men and ignoring their needs. It's a really strong feeling that I get from your posts.

What about the absent fathers, the violent fathers, the ones who sexually abuse? Do they bear no responsibility in any of this?

I'm sorry MW but I am still not quite sure what you are getting at with all this. I know you are trying to exaplain but I am finding it hard to follow you. All I am getting is that you don't like women very much, and think they are responsible for the problems in our society.

This suicide thing - what did you want me to say? That it is one of the biggest problems facing society and money and resources should be targetted to stamp it out?

It isn't the biggest problem facing society today.
It is very difficult to tackle as there is not a clearly defined target group - as there is with say gun and knife crime in certain areas - which I would argue is a bigger problem killing more young men.
I am not sure how it links into this idea that men are being hard done by - I assumed you were using it to show that things were getting worse for men but the figures have not changed ie they do not support your argument.
It is regularly in the news, people are aware of it. There are regularly articles in the papers saying how bad it is.
People do see it as a problem and time and money is spent wondering how to tackle about it.

I don't see how you extrapolate that to me saying it is OK that people commit suicide.

I think I agree that for some men that aggression is the only way they know how to express feelings. Anger is often born out of fear and for some men the fear is having any display of emotion seen by their mates that might mark them out as anything less than totally 'manly man'. And I think upbringing has a lot to do with that. 'Big boys don't cry'.

I also agree that women can be very emotionally abusive. Someone pointed out a few months ago the number of threads in Relationships and AIBU where there are accounts of truly horrible behaviour from mothers or MILs. It might be a cliche but I think there is a nugget of truth to the one about how men fight with fists and women fight with words.

I'm still confused about this suicide thing.

You originally said:

"I don't think poor poor men. But I do question why, if so much is going there way, why do

these (suicide) statistics exist?

The disparity in the UK figures is alarming. Do you not think that is an indication that maybe there is something deeper where men are concerned than the surface issues of them being dominant?

That maybe they are not as happy with their roles in society as we are led to believe? "

Why do you think the disparity in the UK figures is alarming, given that it is a similar disparity to that in all other countries?

Is it really a sign that men are deeply unhappy? Well the men who do it, obviously, but it's really not that common. Not as common as other signs of unhappiness. I can think of other things, like drug and alcohol abuse for example, or depression, which are far more widespread, and are worsening.

What do you think these figures say? That men in the UK are much less happy than women because they commit suicide more?

Please can you explain what you think this statistic is saying, so that i can respond to it properly. I am really struggling with what your meaning is.

You did not say that it is good that people commit suicide ISNT.... but there seems to be an implication of that as it is not getting worse it is not still very alarming that the rate is so bad. I never thought for a minute that you think it is OK. The fact that it is not getting worse does not make the existing figures acceptable. I have misunderstood your post.

Oh I know very well that there are many many reasons and causes why women have issues and have the greatest empathy. I like women very much, enjoy the areas of MN that I spend most of my time on, but my points is IF there is so much understanding as to why women make bad choices, hell, I have enough issues. WHY, OH WHY is that understanding not extended to men?

Because the reverse seems to be true.. that in a lot of instances, women are able to get a greater understanding of why they act in certain ways, but when the gender is reversed men are just violent abusers with NO reason at all. And THAT to me seems grossly unfair. My defense of men is NOT a condemnation of women..It is a question.

I accept that there is inequality. injustice, but it goes both ways, my last long post was in answer to Dittanys question. Hence the length of my opiinion on why
Again I would ask, if there is such understanding extended to why women have so many complex emotional issues, WHY is that not extended to men?
And I also think that the statistics of male suicide is very indicative of not men being 'hard done by' but that somewhere society is failing them.
And yes gun and knife crime is alarming, frightening, but the seriousness of one issue doesn't diminish the seriousness of another. Surely you can see that the issues that are leading to a rise in guns and knife crime go way beyond men simply being aggressive.

Again, my experience is simply that an emotionally disturbed young man is highly likely to express himself aggressively.

There is undeniably an ocean of support for women with problems, it seems to be in their nature, which is good and positive, but it obviously doesn't exist adequately for boys and men because of the rise of troubled youth and the rise of such crimes.

I reiterate that I do not dislike women, But I think the same measure of structured support should be offered to men in a way that they can access it and and then I strongly believe that many of the issues for which they are so heavily condemned will start to fade away,

I think where females benefit from the existing counselling system, this sort of thing would be more positive for males

I picked the UK because I ma here and my cultural references are here. For that reason only.
My concern over suicide figures in men is that to me it is indicative of the fact that something is not in place in society for (troubled) men.

Someone pointed out that women are more likely to do something as a cry for help. Maybe because generally they feel that whilst it is an extreme way of asking for it, it will be there for them. So why don't men? Why don't men cry for help? Why has education not given them the voice to ask for help? It bothers me. Not over and above my social awareness that there are unhappy women by any means. But as undeniably the biggest percentage of crimes are committed by men, the system for dealing with it obviously isn't working, so maybe we are missing the point.

That where women's unhappiness manifests itself internally, men's unhappiness destructively manifests itself externally, and maybe with that approach, a different way could be used to deal with angst ridden young men, whatever the cause, to prevent them from becoming violent, aggressive antisocial members of society.

We know the causes of antisocial behaviour. They are poverty and dysfunctional families, lack of education and lack of opportunity.

The results for both men and women are catastrophic.

I said earlier that women are more likey to self harm and have things like eating disorders than commit suicide. I have not seen anyone say "cry for help" on here - and I didn't mean that. As most people who do things like self harm/eating disorders do it in privacy and hide what they are doing. They are secretive about it - it is not a cry for help it is a symptom of their state of mind.

Why young men are more likely to commit suicide than young women - I thought that testosterone had a part to play? That the particular cocktail of hormones young men are exposed to makes them more likely to end up taking this sort of action. ie it is not actually something to do with society, it is something to do with brain chemicals. Which isn't to say it should be ignored - but using it as evidence of how men are treated badly by society seems not quite right somehow.

I also think that there are lots of different problems - some are to do with how men are socialised and thus are across teh country, some are to do with more obvious things like for example gang culture and absence of male guidance. The strands need to be separated out - one thing needs to be thought about at a time IYSWIM.

Like you seem to be saying that men are socialised in a way which means that they can't seek help, which turns them violent, which turns them into criminals. That chain doesn't feel quite right somehow. There are other factors at work

I agree with you that men are socialised in a certain way and that it prevents them from showing weakness and so on, and I agree that this is a bad thing. It is a factor in why men die younger than women, and also the reason that married men live longer than unmarried ones. So yes I agree with you on that, that men should be encouraged to look after themselves better.

But I think that you are still kind of mixing ideas up. And I'm still not quite getting it.