In thinking we don't actually need Men to diminish, bully, abuse and curtail our rights as women when we seem capable of doing it between ourselves.

[MitsubishiWarrioress]

To be honest, I am fairly subdued on Mumsnet and avoid AIBU. My life philosophy gets me through pretty well without a great deal of confrontation and I mostly achieve what I need and want with major organisations, banks etc with this attitude.

The cheer to fight on MN, (which IS in my opinion, a slice of life, and not just words on a screen (an excuse which seems to be used increasingly to make offensive and inflammatory comments)), seems to be cried almost daily.

The thick vein of Misandry overwhelms and alarms me, and it concerns me that we are raising boys with such negative opinions of their own sex that it is almost inevitable that bad behaviour and treatment of women will follow because, they have such low expectations of themselves within society.

This argument is often used to excuse women making bad choices, and yet is not applicable to men in a lot of instances.

I think there should be far less focus on the feminism aspect of equality and a drive to aspire to greater humanity.

I was bullied consistantly through school, by girls 95% of the time, and I do not hold that this was primarily as a result of male pressure.
The truth is, that some women are not very nice, just as with some men.

I have witnessed posters making quiet comments about something they have done for their men, but avoiding the general site because of the flaming they will get.

So that is 'choice' is it?

Apologising for admitting they are happy with their lot because they will be accused of 'smugness'. I have lost the count of how many times such a post will prompt the [vom] response.

I have nothing against debate, 'cheery' banter, and the passion with which differences of opinions are often aired, but sometimes the vitriolic attacks on fellow women is perhaps just as indicative of the undermining of our own sex as many of the issues in society. Because I presume not many posters have men standing over their shoulders telling them what to type.

I despair. I really do.

In general I don't have a problem with people arguing amongst themselves - this is a largely female forum, and arguments happen everywhere. It would be a lot weirder if we all had to agree/get on just because we all have vaginas.

"My point is not that 'feminists' are attacking each other...but that women are." - well yes, we are people too. I can't imagine you stepping into an argument at a football match and saying, "come come, you are all men together and should therefore be nice to each other". Of course we should all be nice to each other because we are humans, and arguing is destructive (if sometimes fun), but it's normal.

Bullying of course is not nice, but you can always step away/namechange/complain to HQ, and on MN at least it is not usually sexual/sexist bullying as on so many "general" website forums (fora?).

WRT misandry, I think most women on here have male partners and lots have sons, brothers, male friends, fathers etc that they get on well with. What I have noticed is that if a poster comes on saying "men eh? they're shite at cooking and can't express their emotions" usually 10 people come and tell them not to be ridiculous. Could you give a bit more detail about what kind of anti-men sentiment you have noticed?

On relationships threads, it's only natural that the OP will paint a more sympathetic picture of themselves, and lots of people will agree that their DH is being a cock, or what have you. That's not being sexist though, any more than sympathising with a female friend when she complains about a male colleague is being sexist.

It may not be anti-male sentiment, but I have certainly observed that if a new chap turns up and complains about his DW/DP, or asks for some insight into why she might be behaving in a certain way, he's usually denounced as a troll within the first ten posts. MN does treat (some) men differently.

I"m a bit depressed at women letting themselves down. Right this moment by 182 posts on toilet paper style and 1 post on my thread about women manually picking up faeces and global women's rights.

"Could you give a bit more detail about what kind of anti-men sentiment you have noticed?"

I once started a thread, ages ago when I was a neophyte, about how partners get called arses very easily. "He didn't hoover." "What a fucking arse."

Now things have changed and usually they are called knobs or knobends instead.

Pro, I spend all day at work doing serious stuff. Mumsnet is light relief for me. I sometimes contribute to trivial threads but it doesn't mean I'm not interested worthwhile stuff.

Absolutely respecting choices here manic

I read your thread probonbon and have followed it up by reading elsewhere. I think sometimes threads that don't ask a question IYSWIM get overlooked. Doesn't mean no-one's reading though.

But on an all-male or mixed thread I can imagine wives being denounced as a "cow" or whatever pretty easily. People usually side with the OP unless it seems like they themselves are being rectumesque. Again don't think it's sexism especially.

Oh elephant I love you thank you. It is the most awful, awful thing, and to be a woman as well as a Dalit as well as a manual scavenger, you are really at the bottom of the shittiest pile of shit. I just feel with the Games this is a good opportunity to raise awareness. Thank you for reading further.

mwah

And also how on earth people outside can help. Here we are in an information heaven while some women don't even know about the rights they have been given. They are cut off and I feel there must be a way to reach out without trying to be "colonial" about it.

Didn't see your post Probono (I ahve a few things blocked as a self defence mechanism, no doubt in one of those topics) but well doeon for raising it, did an essay on dalit culture at Uni (degree was in world faiths and philosophy, think it was a module on Hindu Culture) adn some of the things I read were appalling (think it was not one of my better essays actually as I got too angry)

Well doen for raising it though

And Mitsubishi I alrgely agree with your OP, as a Mother to 4 boys soemtimes I despiar what waits for them in what can seem like a generation of men with low self esteen and poor self imahges: this is everywhere we go, even the t shirts in asda bear statements such as 'I tried but I got bored ' or '100% bad'- in fact I was disappointed to ahve to reject some in M&S recently, its spreading!

'
I think there should be far less focus on the feminism aspect of equality and a drive to aspire to greater humanity.
' Abso bloody lutely

Oh probonbon I know what it's like to be overcome with the unfairness of an issue and you can't get anyone else to care. What can I do about it though? (Serious question) Where did you say you were living? Are they providing alternative work for the women or anything helpful like that? If there are campaigners near you already, you could maybe pay for their travel expenses or something for a day? I am thinking a tenner might pay for a lot of rickshaws for people to actually go round and talk to the relevant communities.

brilliant OP.
and i agree with your point about hiding behind the wider issues.
nothing is one individuals fault anymore, it's society/work/men.
it's like the rape issue, the awful human beings who commit rape and say 'well she was scantily clad'
well, i think you look like a thick shite not worthy of humanity, is it okay if i smash your head in?

on another point, why cant we just treat people as PEOPLE. not men, not women. we would not treat people with different skin colour differently, we are all equal.
alas i fear that many women see themselves superior to men now, and are brought up to shout 'discrimination' every time something doesnt go their way.

Thanks Clarissimo -- thanks so much, I know you have a lot on.

Elephants tis exactly that. It's India. I have a couple of other avenues to try for awareness raising, also there are locally run charities which fund social workers to talk to the women and tell them exactly what their rights are.

The government has set up rehabilitation schemes and funds for them but ahem the education and funds don't always reach down to the people that need them. Trying to put that tactfully. I'm sure you can understand why. So I donate to one of the charities which helps.

I am still confused as to what exactly this thread is about TBH. OP has been so vague people seem to be agreeing with her on whatever they think it means IYSWIM.

Two comments seem to be on the same area:

"Societies projections of how men behave is just as damaging as those of women and yet little seems to be done to address this"

and

"alas i fear that many women see themselves superior to men now, and are brought up to shout 'discrimination' every time something doesnt go their way"

Is this an anti-feminism thread?

i need some clear examples please.

ps elephant -- WaterAid is one of the charities working in this area.

Is this an anti feminism thread? If feminism is truly a desire to bring equality to the sexes without deliberately shifting the balance to in turn bring about a different form of sexism, then no.

I truly question the justification for some of the ''bitchyness'' that exists on this site as an acceptable aspect of it, when we rail so strongly against that kind of treatment of us by men.

I find the giving of examples a difficult choice, as a, it seems to go against what is considered to be good form on MN, and b, these people may not wish for me to use them as examples to back up my argument. So if that makes my thoughts a little limp, I may have to accept that.

It is an absolute fact that the emotional needs of boys are not met adequately in schools and society, I have experienced this first hand, and have a friend who works in this field because it creates such a huge problem with the behaviour of boys and their performance in school.

Just as the social role models on TV, in Magazines and society in general give very negative messages to women, it is equally the case for young boys and men. They are just as vulnerable and impressionable and just as women are making 'bad' choices because of the wrong messages put out to them (the rise of 'Brazilians' as a result of the trend for them in porn), then the exposure to the same messages can equally be said to have a bearing on the choices that men make. If we are so easily swayed by such things, then whilst women become the obvious victims of such propaganda, then men are also victims in being conditioned in what to expect. It would be a double standard to say that men should know better, but to accept the premise that women are victims.

The two issues are linked to me....there is a very specific attitude towards men and their behaviour and how they treat women, and I would be a fool to deny the appalling history of women being suppressed, but there is little acknowledgement that maybe it is the mis-education of men (as children) that contributes to the fertilising of the seeds of unacceptable social behaviour.

And yet...we have an on line community, of predominantly women, where there are frequent levels of antagonism, and 'bitchyness' towards each other which I am supposed to accept as par for the course of individuals defining their boundaries.

We are supposed to support and protect our own sex from toxic attitudes and yet I would wager that the biggest percentage of the demographic of such tripe like heat magazine, hello etc is women.

With reference to the comment about wanting people to be 'nicer' to each other. Why not? And strangely, for someone who struggles with confrontation, I have challenged groups of young men about their behaviour ( in relationship to their attitude to my 12 yr old son) and asked them what they get out of picking on a young boy and what sort of men they think it makes them. Accepting that this stuff happens, is like accepting that you have a couple of nits, pretty soon you have a head full and the they spread.

I would ask..why not think a little more before posting? I manage to and I am nothing special.

It seems indicative to me that I am being advised to just accept that this is the way of things, and yet there is a steady social and moral decline.

Probonbon.... can you link your thread? No, I am not a dainty name. I was, I chose the warrioress name because of personal experiences and wanting to step out of the role of 'victim'. I would be sad if I had crossed the line and become aggressive, because nothing could be further from my wishes. I have learnt a little to have the courage of my convictions from counselling. And I am witnessing my son growing up in a world that doesn't completely offer him the role models to guide him into being the kind of man that he has the potential to be.

So if I'm understanding you:

You have seen feminism brought up as an excuse to excuse bitchy behaviour by women on this site.

You believe that men suffer from various societal expectations and messages as well as women. And there's a double standard in saying that men are not victims of that social conditioning as much as women are, even in circumstances where 'victim' means, for the man, 'consumer of pornography'. Because it's as unfair to expect a man to break out of his social mould as it is to expect a woman to be able to break out of hers.

The miseducation of men is what causes, and contributes to, the subjugation of women.

And the take away from the above is that women should be nicer to each other on a message board.

Is that an accurate summary of what you're trying to say?

I am questioning why if feminism has such relevance, why there is such a prevalence of bitchyness on a site like this. I do not see a justification for trying to address the balance of how women are treated by men (obviously in certain circumstances), and yet viewing how we frequently treat each other on here.

Yes, the second statement sums up pretty well how I feel about why there are so many issues with male behaviour. The miseducation and holes in the provision of support for male victims, in general, in society. (I know of 11 people who have comitted suicide, 8 of them were men).

''And the take away from the above is that women should be nicer to each other on a message board.''

Sort of with this. the wording of that makes my issue seem weak and idealistic. And it is not. It is something I feel very strongly and passionately about. There is a growing trend, on MN, and elsewhere for this 'bitchyness, sometimes dressed up as straight talking, when in my book, it is possible to hold intelligent, heated discourse without descending to it. I suspect that if a post was started about a man talking to a woman the way some posters express their opinions on here, there would be murmerings of EA, and that is a double standard.
So we expect have certain expectations of how men should treat us but it's OK to treat each other with less than respect? I don't think so.

And saying 'it's the way of things', is an appalling attitude IMO.

I do admire you succinctness with words tortoise,.... I am afraid I do tend to use 10 where 1 would have done.

I agree with this:
"I think there should be far less focus on the feminism aspect of equality and a drive to aspire to greater humanity"

i think women people should be nicer to eachother full stop.

i accept that women people being horrible, dissmissive, unsupportive, aggressive and yes 'bitchy' to eachother on here is a reflection of RL, i just dont see why its something to be shrugged at and accepted.

and frankly in MY real life i have had far worse treatment from women than i have men.

i DO think that women are their own worst enemies and that we should start with ourselves and our interaction with the world before we point fingers at men.

i have no idea how this would fit into a feminist or anti feminist argument!

[slopes off to feminist thread place to find out what a feminist actual is definition wise...]

......

I suppose my comment earlier didn't really explain my views properly. Yes, I do think we should try and behave with kindness, integrity and respect, but when we don't on here, then we do have an opportunity for discussion about what is ok and I do value that process and diffferent views on where lines are drawn. I value the notion that we need a minimum of intervention and protection because we can do this for ourselves.

I have been spending more time here recently than usual and have been overwhelmed by the sheer support on here for people in diffculty, if you read those threads I think your faith in humanity and kindness on here will be restored. I think this is quite a special place for a lot of people and the 'bitchiness' is not apparent in these threads.

I do not question what MN is capable of wahwah. I have witnessed it and received support.
But that there are posters who leave from time to time due to being influenced by the tension and unpleasantness is not OK because of it.
Would that not like be saying that men are capable of greater good and therefore we should tolerate and accept that sometimes they aren't? If you happen to be the victim of inappropriate treatment, the fact that someone else wasn't, doesn't make you feel mush better. It needs to be addressed. These things do escalate, not because I say so, but because the evidence is there, and I know what kind of society I would rather live in.
Being considerate and mindful of how we express our opinions doesn't make things bland, it makes us better human beings.

MW, it's a long running issue and not specific to MN but MN definitely provides good examples of it at times!

I did some research into the (subconscious/sociological) adoption of a misogynistic viewpoint by some women and came across a really interesting lecture about the male gaze. I'll see if I can dig it out later.

'In fighting' amongst women is subtlety encouraged in many areas of society and it's a behaviour which directly opposes the root beliefs and intentions of feminism. (Divide and rule - we do it to ourselves). We don't need patriarchy or misogyny to keep us down! Where's the sisterhood?

I have great respect for the feminist movement but I've always struggled with the destruction caused by extreme feminism, which causes women to be so judgemental of other women and sadly, to hate men.

I worry for my son every bit as much as my daughters.

thank you for your interest!

I think I got the wrong end of the stick. I thought you were saying we have a knee jerk reaction against men. Completely got that wrong.

Now I think I've got it I agree with the tone of what you are saying but as you quite rightly point out, it can be made to seem wishy washy and nicey nicey and idealistic. Yes, some dress up rudery as straight talking, that is true, and sometimes it masks good points they make. I find that really frustrating.

The point scoring is also a bit tedious. It is possible of course to disagree with someone and then say "oh but you have a good point with xyz, however do you think this?" in an effort to actually hammer something interesting out. But the response is often more an "aha I win" than anything else. And people are unwilling to give an inch when it could lead to a more interesting conversation. It's highly competitive in some ways.