to be a bit annoyed about a friend that thinks woman should not be allowed to have ivf on the nhs?

[CarrieDaBabi]

this friend, she is 33, and is planning on trying to start a family in a years time.

she said she doesn't agree with ivf etc and if it doesn't happen she will just accept its fate/not ment to be

then she went on to say she doesn't think that woman should be allowed to have ivf on the nhs.
i was a bit and
at her comments and attitude

she is nornally very left wing

i said, i thought women only got 1 go at ivf on the nhs and i think it should be avavlible on the nhs as its something that could cause depression pyschlogical issues

and that your on dodgey ground ruling things out as where would it stop, fat people people who drink or smoke not being able to get treatment
or people with depression not getting treatment.

to which she replied depression os an illness, i know it is, i said but not being able to have a baby can make you depressed

i felt really shocked at what she was saying

What is the problem?your friend is allowed to have her opinion,which tbh I myself agree with.Then I do not know what it is like to be a woman who is desperate to have ivf treatment,Of course it is a sad situation.

YABU- she is entitled to her opinion- and I aggree with your friend that IVF should not be available on the NHS. Due to cost to the health service etc. However I do not think it is that simple.

If some women choose to delay starting a family until they are financially sercure and will not have to depend on the state and they have problems ttc- they may need IVF.

If these women have children earlier would we also loose a lot of money from the 'system' in the tax they pay and the extra support they will need?

I have a crush on kickassangel

Wow - I thought the general opinion on here would be lots of IVF available on the NHS and anyone who suggests otherwise is the devils's child! I have read most of this thread and do agree with expat a few pages ago. The NHS shouldn't have to fund any IVF especially as the success rate is so low. As Expat says where she comes from people SAVE for it!

I do wander if the mere existance of IVF heaps more misery on infertile couples. Obviously if you are successful then no but I really feel for all those who endure several rounds of IVF and still don't succeed.

But I also think gastric bands shouldn't be available on the NHS and that if you end up in casualty cos you got pissed then you should pay for it.

I am in two minds. A friend recently conceived on her first round of IVF which was through the NHS which is amazing. But my mother who nearly died of cancer and lost a leg to it cannot have a leg that works (and has been without one altogether for a year at one point) because the NHS is too broke to provide. Despite it being a stricture by the primary care trust, ( Same health authority for both cases.) I'm not naive enough to believe that stopping IVF would mean money for all these other things, but it does seem off.

When DH and I started trying for children last year we discussed IVF and both felt uncomfortable. Had I not conceived we might have felt differently I'm sure.

I am just uncomfortable at the concept of procreation as a right. I don't believe it is, and I am reinforced in that belief by some of the kids/parents I see at school. If something isn't a 'right' I don't know to what extent the country should pay for it.

Perhaps a middle ground, a subsidised scheme or something?

But then I am a softy as well and hate to see people unhappy so then I am back to agreeing that 1 round on the NHS is fair!

Oh, and OP YABU to be 'annoyed' that your friends feels differently to you.

I have no objection to people having IVF on the NHS.

There are millions of 'undeserving' people who get treatement on the NHS. The point of our brilliant and wonderful health system is that we dont judge.

I speak as someone who watched her child suffer from cancer and as someone who has adopted (I mention this as these are issues that frequently come up on these threads).

The ivf system does seem a bit odd from the outside though. Some places you have to be a certain age, some you have to be childless, some you can be in a new relationship and have 6 kids already.

If we do stop IVF on the NHS that will mean that only people with a certain income will be able to have it and I cant see how that is fair.

When I was ttc DC4 I thought that my chances were slim and resigned myself to that, I told myself that I wouldnt dream of assisted conception if I didnt get pg. But that was easy for me to say as I already had 3 children and I DID get pg. Now on DC5 so I understand the longing for children but could never understand the pain of infertility.

BTW adoption is NOT anything like having a birth child. Its not a solution to infertility, its a very different matter altogether.

If you're going to go down that route you should first pull treatment for people who repeatedly self inflict it on themselves.

Then IVF should be treated the same as any other non life saving treatment of which there is a pretty lengthy list. I had treatment for PND like 1000s of other women-why is that ok but IVF not ok? Believe me the agony of infertility was far worse

As others have said IVF is continually being used as the whipping boy here. Thankfully this is not the case with the NHS who can clearly see it's just as worthy as many,many other non life saving treatments and are consequently funding it.

And saying people should just save up is very patronising. Some people just don't have the means to do that, believe me if they did they would.

I think a little bit of empathy wouldn't go amiss here-you know that saying about walking a mile in somebody's shoes.

I also don't get this "sense of entitlement". I've never been on benefits in my life,avoid hospitals,doctors etc like the plague. I never once felt "entitled" to anything just gut wrenchingly miserable and extremely desperate. Going through the agony of infertility and being desperate for help is not the same as wanting an appointment about my child's behavior problems

Sorry not my child but the children Minx deals with-you get my drift

'And saying people should just save up is very patronising'

I wasn't saying people should save for it. BUT expat said where she comes from that's what people actually do.

'And saying people should just save up is very patronising. Some people just don't have the means to do that, believe me if they did they would.'

Plenty of people manage to find the means in places where there is no NHS.

Not saying it's easy, but it is done, commonly enough.

TBH I am not really sure about this.

Part of me thinks that the NHS is resource constrained and so IVF should not be available for women on the NHS, esp those who have chosen to wait while they focus on others things or to those who already have a child.

But I think the NHS only gives one cycle so that doesn't really deal with the depression angle because it might not work.

There are some things the NHS pays for that I don't agree with (eg you don't get a bill if you drink too much and get your stomach pumped etc) but perhaps the limited resources would be better spent? I'm not sure I can see it both ways.

So YABU as she is entitled to her view - although your view is equally valid.

That doesn't make it right and some people will never,ever find the means.

We were paying £250 just for a blood test. It isn't just £3000 for the cycle there are masses of add ons. Where is somebody on benefits going to find that kind of money-oh I get it, if they're on benefits they shouldn't even be contemplating having kids

'Where is somebody on benefits going to find that kind of money-oh I get it, if they're on benefits they shouldn't even be contemplating having kids'

And with that incredibly far out and patronising juxtaposition and the implications it carries, you just demonstrated that if people don't agree with the NHS's funding of IVF, they must all be right-wing fascists types.

Big bonuses aren't right, either. Unequally distributed wealth isn't right.

Reality isn't right.

No NHS where I live. Plenty of people have IVF though.
I'd say thats the situation in most places. Only in the UK do you seem to think you have some sort of inalienable right to get anything you think you need on the NHS.

"Reality isn't right" well that reality has a whole lot of other things funded on the NHS-why not IVF?

So we're agreed it's not right that the rich can have IVF and the poor can't-thankfully we have the NHS which can help to redress the balance just a little.

Sooo couldn't give a monkeys what happens in other countries, I've haven't being paying my tax and NI there for the last 20 years.

Err okay, but MN isn't just for the British y'know, we're allowed opinions as foreigners.

'So we're agreed it's not right that the rich can have IVF and the poor can't'

Um, no. YOU read this yourself into other peoples' posts and make this conclusion that, because people don't think the NHS should fund IVF, that only 'rich' people can have IVF.

That is YOUR conclusion.

And I'm British. I live and pay tax and NI here, too.

But that is the case Expat, if the poor don't get help only the rich will get IVF.

Apparently the notion that in other countries, poor people have IVF (depending of course on your ill defined notion of rich* and poor^) is irrelevant to your rather narrow argument though.

No, that's not the case.

I'm a poor person, and it's possible for people like me to earn and save money. Of course, there are endless excuses I can use to justify not doing that for the purpose of say, a holiday or a boob job or whatnot.

Most people can earn and save the amount of money IVF costs, and policy is generally based on what is so for most people.

It's also possible to have it cheaper abroad, source drugs from abroad, all kinds of options that are used by people who live in places where there is no NHS or the healthcare system doesn't provide for IVF or they decide, for whatever reason, go private.

Of course, it's far easier to patronise people like me as 'the poor' and use people like me as a vehicle for one's own agenda.

Don't get annoyed at her, she shares an opinion with a great many people

Sorry Runny but if you're scraping by on benefits I fail to see how £5000 can just be just produced out of thin air-do tell us all how it's done.

Eh? Who is annoyed, it's a discussion on a net forum with a bunch of random strangers/hairy-handed truckers/aliens, etc.

wow MilaMae

how to win friends and influence people...!
Seriously - do you really believe what you are posting ?

and I think Runnybottom has had some good points actually..and I thought this was a debate / discussion ? Where one person listens to another 's point of view and tries to understand ?

Ok.. well think I've heard more than enough - you're not prepared to even try to understand any other pov..