to be a bit annoyed about a friend that thinks woman should not be allowed to have ivf on the nhs?

[CarrieDaBabi]

this friend, she is 33, and is planning on trying to start a family in a years time.

she said she doesn't agree with ivf etc and if it doesn't happen she will just accept its fate/not ment to be

then she went on to say she doesn't think that woman should be allowed to have ivf on the nhs.
i was a bit and
at her comments and attitude

she is nornally very left wing

i said, i thought women only got 1 go at ivf on the nhs and i think it should be avavlible on the nhs as its something that could cause depression pyschlogical issues

and that your on dodgey ground ruling things out as where would it stop, fat people people who drink or smoke not being able to get treatment
or people with depression not getting treatment.

to which she replied depression os an illness, i know it is, i said but not being able to have a baby can make you depressed

i felt really shocked at what she was saying

Agree with Expat.

Actually DD its a boy with anorexia LOL (but I know thats v rare, not so much in kids with asd though- tend towards the obsessional)

Thanks for your good wishes; we are lucky I think in that I astudying ASD, so am more aware what to look for.

Childcare FT? Blimey! I didnt even know you could get that! The LEA pay for ds4 to go to a Cm twice a week so I can sleep / clean / study whilst DH is at Uni but thats in lieu of SSD being useful IYKWIM

I find it strange that so many expect so much for free.

I agree that IVF should not be funded on the nhs.

And I am unable to carry a baby to term without it dying.

And I'm pretty left-wing

Whatever the NHS gives or does not Hribo its only free at teh point of delviery; my guiess is that many well off people would say that prcisely the fact that they are taxpayers / not claiming benefits / unlikely to use X Y and Z make them eligible

I am not sure how I feel wrt to that tbh, either way, but I can understand the POV

Actually I don't think it is patronising scoutliam. I wouldn't presume to know what it feels like to lose a child or a parent because it hasn't happened to me. I can have a guess at how I might feel but it would be hugely arrogant of me to say I know what it feels like because I don't. Same with infertility. Empathy is not the same as being in the same position. At all

ClairedeLoon (great name )

my thoughts exactly.. but its completely and utterly true.. I have not made up a word of it.

And yes I can believe that this may not be the same all over the country - am a victim of the postcode lottery myself with my dd's care which is funded in several pcts but not in ours ..

and Kitstwins .. I dont agree that IVF is a whipping boy at all..several of the posters on this thread have stated that they would support restrictions being made on those who have self inflicted health issues due to smoking and drinking too.. you are taking this too personally .. we would all love to have enough money to fund everything - but the moneys not there ..
I agree about saving money being needed across the NHS and if that ever happened then Id be one of the first to stick up for the rights of women and men to have fertility treatment ..but whilst its a choice between funding for cancer drugs and care for my dd's lifelong condition - Im sorry but I will vote against NHS IVF everytime ..I had to wait until I had had nine miscarriages before I finally got seen by a recurrent mc clinic on the NHS ..
So please , I am well aware of how it feels to not be able to have a child ..Before I had my son I was completely devastated by the thought that I would never be a mother .and I have never ever forgotten that feeling - that pain ..

Lady, I believe it's patronising when used in the debate context, no nothing is the same as actually experiencing that pain but it's condescending to use it as an arguement.

Although I broadly agreecwith the principle that those who can pay for ivf should do so, there are circumstances in which it is reasonable for this to be paid for generally.

e.g at age 9 my DH was infected with hiv following a blood transfusion. At age 11, it turned out he has hepc as well. As with the haemophiliacs, the govt has consistently refused to give any proper compensation for this disaster. DH is on combination therapy, managing well and usually able to work.

I desperately wanted children and we discussed our options withhis consultant before we married. After doing all the checks, we were both healthy with no fertility problems and nothing that lifestyle changes could fix (I wish). The options were either go through fertility treatment to minimise the risk of transmission or to take the chance and expect the nhs to pick up the tab if I was infected.

As it is we did ivf, we have 2 healthy children both conceived first time and no hiv/hepc transmission. I think it was fair that our cycle of ivf should be funded as should cycles for people left infertile after cancer treatment for eg.

If some ivf can be morally justifiable, where di decide that people should have to fund themselves other than by the current system of making it difficult to obtain, esp for 3 cycles.

SKIDOODLY- 'Infertility is often a medical condition. The nhs exists to give medical treatment. Ivf is an expensive, non-critical medical intervention that can (if successful) have a very positive effect on the patient's quality of life.

I think it is right that it is available on the nhs and fair that it is rationed (the three cycles recommended by NICE seems about right).

I feel a little bit ill after reading about the woman who dropped a friend for receiving medical treatment her doctor thought was appropriate for her but that this woman didn't agree with. I had no idea I shared the world with anyone that unpleasant. ' -

there you go presuming it was i who dumped her! lol, silly presumptious woman -
i didn't drop her at all, infact im the one who has tried to stay in contact with her, but shes so self involved at the moment she has dropped a number of friends, i was offereing her another view point, yes i didn't like her attitude towards it, but that doesn't mean i no longer wanted to be her friend!
she knows what im like and my opinions, i wasn't unsuportive, infact i looked after her dd when she went to hosiptal to have keyhole surgery to check her uterus.

Agree with wannabe having children is not a right, as others have said it's a privelege and a blessing but it's not a biological right (what is the definition of "biological right" anyway?)

Also agree with expat there is a hige sense of entitlement in this country with regrads to the free, relatively easily accessible treatment we get on the NHS. It's FREE, and it's equal access for all whatever your circumstance.

I cannot praise the eraly pregnancy unti at my local hospital highly enough when I was pg with ds afer a previous mc. I walked in because I was in pain, they saw me staright away, took bloods and scanned me every few days until thankfully they saw a heartbeat. My main symptom was extreme anxiety, nothing clinical! Yet they were great. I am priveleged to have free access to a service like this, something that women in other countries do not have.

I have worked for the NHS for 11 years. Currently working in CAMHS and I'm afraid there IS a sense of entitlement amongst (some of) our service users. We have an 11 week waiting list compared to the rest of the country having an 18 week one and we work flat out so as not to breach it. Still get abuse from parents about why their childs behavioural problem isn't being "sorted" more quickly, and no understanding from some about how we may have to see them less often than we'd like as we're dealing with deliberate self-harm cases all the time which will always take precedence over behavioural problems, every time.

I don't think I'm taking it too personally. The issue doesn't actually relate to me in that I didn't have fertilty treatment on the NHS. I had savings, we earnt enough money. My decision to use private fertility treatment was based on wanting to skip a long waiting list AND not thinking it fair to clutter up a waiting list filled with people who don't have savings or the means to afford it. I used a private clinic in London and got lucky first (and last) go. And although I was pregnant with twins (thus potentially placing an even greater burden on NHS neonatal/specialist care by putting two embryos back, but there's a whole other anti-fertilty treatment/NHS thread....) I had them privately so the burden I placed on resources was pretty limited I think.

I don't know why I strongly feel that having a child is a right. Innate I suppose. I felt it when we were going through IVF treatment - that I'd just keep going because it was what I had to do. There was no sense of foot-stamping 'entitlement' from the NHS - more a sense of entitlement and expectation from my body and biology.

I think if we trim IVF from the list of offered NHS treatment then other things have to go also. You then need to turn the NHS into an organisation that concentrates wholly on serious and/or life-saving and pallative care as otherwise you're penalising the sub-fertile over someone with an ingrown toenail or a torn ligament. You also need to look into managing the bureaucracy/money-wasting that is endemic. I'd still be happy to pay my tax on that. I just don't believe that IVF should be the first cull just because some people believe that on a sliding scale of medical indulgences having a child is at the top.

Changingname- , I wish you and your family well.

minxof I know its not your fault but maybe just a few of those people like us have been dealing with severe aggression and otehr really ahrd issues for over a decade without being able to geta referral to CAMHs (DS1 has 'finally' develope3d eating disorders so we re being seen by GP with view to referral at next opportunity, rm in 3 weeks0 and are just exhausted and completely worn out by it all? It may justbe the way it comes across in your post but soemtimes a bit of empathy for what it can be like to deal with severe behavioural difficulties without any input for year upon year, being attacked, wacthing your otehr childbren be hurt, scared for what will become fo your affected achild- thats pretty shit too.

I see both sides. Infertility is painful for those who are in that position so in an ideal world IVF would be available on NHS. But with the NHS having limited resources something has to give. I guess if you have to make a decision to fund cancer treatment or IVF I would rather make the cancer treatment priority.

clarissimo what you've described WOULD be treated as a priority by our service as it's long term, extreme and potentially dangerous. I'm sorry it took so long for your son to see CAMHS, in fact I'm v surprised it took so long. We have a policy of seeing pretty much everyone regradless of severity. The behavioural problems I'm talking about aren't on the scale you've described.

Eating disorders are also seen within 3 weeks rather than the 11 weeks, sooner if there's a risk of hospital admission.

I hope now you've got a referral it's helpful. If not you can always ask for another practitioner/team to have a reassessment done.

Who is saying its at the top? You can have an opinion on lots of different things at once you know.

Having a baby is not a right? Some people are not able to have children, thats horrible but its basic biology. There can be no right to have children, because no-one can guarantee that to you, IVF or not.

And you are making MASSIVE assumptions about the thoughts and motivations of others.

thanks minx. I hope it helps, I think the main issue here is camhs had a thing about not seeing Aspwergers kids for a bit (reputredly- we're not in erngland )

jhope we get somewhereour emergency school review was cancelled an hour ago as lea too busy to send anyone so am pissed off and sorry if I jumped at you

It's ok totally understand after what you've had to go through. Vert strange they won't see Aspergers kids tho, we have a team specifically to deal with ASD (i'm not on it, i'm CBT trained for emotional/psychotic disorders) and they do v in depth specilaist assessments and interventions.

Whereabouts are you? Best of luck

We're Wales, we do ahev access to a lady associated with CAMHs for ds3 (more severely asd) who basically just supports dh and I (ds3 is doing fine) and she is wonderful but my impression is they are just getting their heads around ASD type disorders- i've been asked to sit on some committees that are planned though they have yet to appear.

Thanks for the best wishes

OK, I've read Kitstwins post, as suggested and agree it's a good post apart from the statement that having a child is a right. It's not. I don't think anyone wants to make IVF the whipping boy here, but my personal opinion is that I'd rather the limited supply of money was used on curing and prevention. I don't think you can discard the opinions of those who have been lucky enough not to have problems with conceiving based on them "not understanding" the pain of infertility. It's a difficult subject for many, many people.

Speaking as someone who has had fertility problems, I agree with her. The NHS is not an endless pot of resources and whilst so many life saving treatmenets are denied because of lack of funds, cut backs HAVE to be made.

The reason the NHS is overstretched is NOT due to a few cycles of IVF so will people stop saying "when it comes down to a choice between IVF and lifesaving drugs.....".

The NHS was overstretched long before it even started funding IVF.

But the NHS has to save money and cut costs, doesn't it, and lots of people are just saying that they would rather lifesaving drugs/research was funded and not IVF, amongst other things.

Perhaps the nhs was already overstretched before it started funding IVF, so could it therefore not be argued that given the nhs was already overstretched it shouldn't be overstretching itself any further to fund IVF?

If you can't afford the treatments you're already funding, then it is madness to suggest you start funding more.