to be a bit annoyed about a friend that thinks woman should not be allowed to have ivf on the nhs?

[CarrieDaBabi]

this friend, she is 33, and is planning on trying to start a family in a years time.

she said she doesn't agree with ivf etc and if it doesn't happen she will just accept its fate/not ment to be

then she went on to say she doesn't think that woman should be allowed to have ivf on the nhs.
i was a bit and
at her comments and attitude

she is nornally very left wing

i said, i thought women only got 1 go at ivf on the nhs and i think it should be avavlible on the nhs as its something that could cause depression pyschlogical issues

and that your on dodgey ground ruling things out as where would it stop, fat people people who drink or smoke not being able to get treatment
or people with depression not getting treatment.

to which she replied depression os an illness, i know it is, i said but not being able to have a baby can make you depressed

i felt really shocked at what she was saying

well i think she should be allowed an opinion,as you are too!

but i dont think having ivf in case being childless leads to depression,is a great reason

I'm not sure where I stand on this TBH. But don't be surprised at her opinion, it's not uncommon.

tis a thorny issue. i am not sure it is an efficient use of money and tbh alot of women end up depressed becuase of ivf. i think women need to be better prepared for possiblity of infertility.

I cannot imagine the pain of infertility. I am happy for peole to have IVF on the NHS. I think it is quite a nasty opinion to hold to begrudge people IVF on the NHS.

Too be honest I think I agree. When the NHS doesn't have enough money to give life saving drugs to people with cancer, etc it does seem a bit wrong. But easy for me to say with no fertility problems I guess. But saw my aunt die from cancer due to not being allowed heptercin (sp?).

Well IVF is expensive. And it's not medically necessary. And people can adopt children already in existance.
Pragmatically, there are good reasons to argue that IVF should not be available on the NHS. I personally don't agree with those reasons, I am in favour of fertility treatment being available for those who need it, and I think if she finds herself unable to conceive she may well change her mind about the IVF thing.

I hope it doesn't come to that for her, but it might teach her a bit of compassion.

YABU it is her own opinion and TBH you will find this i quite a common one too.
many of my friends and i don't agree on many issues but that doesn't affect my friendships, otherwise i wouldn't have any lol.
i just accept that we think and feel differently about certain subjects, nothing you can do really.

I always like the argument on this I read somewhere once from an IVF specialist (I think). He said that fertility is the norm for most people and so people who are unable to conceive essentially have something in their bodies that isn't working properly. In the same way as the NHS is expected to fix a dodgy heart or leg, we should also (if we have the capability) expect it to fix infertility.

she's entitled to her opinion.

Fwiw I sort of agree with her. The NHS is overstretched as it is, and IMO should be there to save existing lives not to create new ones.

Added to that the chances of having a successful first ivf attempt are slim - about 30%, so is it really appropriate to put public money into something that has so little chance of success when that money could be better used elsewhere?

And I disagree with the statement that because infertility could lead to depression ivf should be given on the nhs. You probably wouldn't be successful with your nhs ivf treatment and could still end up with depression.

But having said all that the current system is far more unfair as it's a postcode lottery and some pct's give treatment and others don't. It should be all or nothing.

Also, the fact I don't think ivf should be available on the nhs doesn't mean I begrudge those who have had it.

i think its very easy to hold these opinions if you are fertile or assume that you are. I hppe for your friends sake that when she does decide to start a family she doesn't need assistance. infertility is a condition and sufferers deserve treatment for it imho (although how i would feel if my circumstances were different I don't know)

i actually semi agree with wannabe, the current system is very unfair.

I tend to agree with your friend, in a world of limited NHS budget it should be focused on those who are already alive iyswim.

Don't see what being left wing has to do with it.

Aside from not thinking IVF should be available on the NHS she sounds like she's said that she doesn't agree with IVF at all, which is interesting.

ivf is not the only treatment available but the nhs is such a lumbering beast it doesn't have the flexibilty to consider other options.

for example, ivf without the expensive fertilty drugs has been proven to be more successful with older women and is less harmful to long term health, but this option is not available.

TBH, I'm sort of in agreement with her... sort of.

it is a very fair point that the money would be better spent on lifesaving treatment. especially as IVF has such a low success rate.

also there is a difference between those who have fertility problems that are completely out of their control, and those who don't - I know people who had fertility treatment (admittedly not full IVF) who were over 30, overweight, smoked, poor diet etc, all of which DO affect fertility. I feel horrible thinking that though

It's easy for me to feel like that though, both our babies were conceived unbelievably quickly, very healthy, no MCs or anything... I am thankful for that every single day. Heaven knows how I'd feel if I'd had problems, especially as my DH has 3 kids from exW, and we certainly couldn't afford any treatment. There but for the grace of god/[insert atheist alternative] go I.

they whole system is unfair, i had a friend who already has one child, got an infection which damaged the lining of her womb, and 5 yrs on is now on a waiting list for IVF on the NHS, this to me is totally unbelievable, im not sure how shes on the list when she already has one child.

even though i don't fully agree with NHS finding IVF treatment, I did put it to her that she may be taking away a possible treatment from a woman who has no children, but she really didn't care, i found it incredibly selfish, and her attitude to it unrealistic, since then we really haven't spoken :S

'...and if it doesn't happen she will just accept its fate/not ment to be'

That's the attitude I had to having children - wouldn't have bothered going down the ivf route personally.

Quite happy for other people to do it, though. The NHS is never going to have enough money to fix everything.

until you have had fertility issues you really don't understand the sheer desperation and heartache involved.

personally i think the money used for IVF would be better of spent on a good therapy course for infertile couples, and maybe the adoption process should be assessed too, i think alot of people want a baby to look after, not a toddler, and i know that puts a lot of peole off going down that route.

ottmum - that is patronising shite

thing is though, the nhs isn't fixing peoples' fertility issues in the same way as someone with, for instance, a damaged leg. If you had a damaged leg you would be given as much treatment as necessary to fix it. But if you have fertility issues should you be given as many ivf cycles as necessary? at 5 grand a time?

I wonder if it is that she doesn't agree with ivf or whether she feels that it's not for her.

Some people don't agree with the concept of ivf because they feel that life begins at conception ie the fertilisation of the egg, and thus to destroy an embrio that is not implanted is equal to destroying a life.

But other people just don't feel that ivf is for them. It's a hugely invasive process, both emotionally and physically, and it's not for everyone. I was unable to conceive a second child, but decided that ivf isn't for me. That doesn't mean I don't agree with it - I just don't feel that I personally could go through it. But my sil is currently going through IVF and I really, really hope that it works for her.

Your last paragraph sums it up for me, wannaBe.

the reason i stated she is very left wing, is that she is usually very compassionate about most things.

ie the world is evil capatalist and people don't have choices in life etc etc.

so it was a bit of a shock to hear her thinking like that.

how is that patronising shite?
[hmmm]

Obviously there has to be a cut off. But I always think it's a bit bizarre how fertility treatment is about costs when they aren't discussed for most other things. I have two different friends who injured themselves badly - one snowboarding, one falling when he was pissed. Both of them have had a number of operations involving metal pins etc, huge amounts of physio and associated support. Their treatment must have cost thousands and thousands. If you start talking about people who 'deserve' treatment versus those who don't, I'm just not entirely sure where it stops.