to find it incredibly irritating when in certain circles school fees are talked about as if they are a necessity, not a choice?

[emkana]

Like Emma Thomson currently on the Women programme on BBC 4, or very often in the "Style" section of the Sunday Times.

Quite. Our household income is more than 3 x national average. School fees for two children are completely out of the question. Actually, still out of the question if we only had one child. And out of the question anyway because of my strong views on private education!

But, anyway, yYou do have to have plenty of surplus income (its not that easy to save £20,000 a year by foregoing your family holiday or downgrading the sort of car you drive) or family help. You just do.

stealth - I am always wary of that "we work hard" argument though. Lots of people work hard. People who scrub toilets and work on the tills in Tesco work hard, but they don't have school "choice" in general.

Grimma - agree there is an element of self-selection about thread participation. But does the balance of the thread reflect the balance of MN? Probably slightly more biased but not an awful lot. In fact, remembering now... wasn't there a poll here a couple of years ago which found about 35% were private school users?

Thank you UQD

That's us actually - when we bought our house we didn't even have children so schools were well down our list.

We moved to where we live because it's quiet, nice houses which are well-kept, big gardens, handy for shops and good bus to town etc (god I sound middle-aged! .

Anyway, the fantabulous school we are in catchment for (and thus have avoided paying big fees) has a catchment which extends into the inner city actually, ooh including houses which are a lot cheaper than this area...

What motivates people to move is a huge area though UniquietDad. I know many here (east modlands) who have moved just so their child can go to a specific school that has good exam results (Working in the hospital I see more drunk children from this school then any other though so I don't think it's this good), I've known parents who have moved their children from private schools to that school because it's seen as better aswell. We all want the best for our children and we all think that we are making the best choices for them. The catchment school ds was offered is dire, a behavioural specialist went in a couple of years ago to advise the teachers and ended up in A&E after she was hit over the head by a pupil. Would you send your child here??

And as you may have noticed, I didn't claim a monopoly on hard work.

Grimma, you're right. And as someone who has done just that (bought a house near good schools) I'll acknowledge the class privilege (there's a lovely old spartist phrase you don't hear enough these days) that allowed me to do so.

What I won't do is pretend that I can only do this because I'm living on cabbage soup, or that there was no choice - it was practically NHS-prescribed - because my daughter's cannot, simply cannot, be met within the state schools in our old area. (They can't, but neither can those of the other kids, either.)

I don't want to get into bashing parents who send their kids private. I've already said I understand why and, if I could afford it, I'd be sorely tempted myself. But I suspect many of those who go private do at some level feel bad about it, because they know it's shoring up inequality. The debate is so polarised that they get defensive, and to be fair many of those who attack them talk complete nonsense about the state system (which in some areas - of course not all, or even most - is an appalling option for children, and particularly for those who are very academic or not natural crowd-pleasers). I don't want people to feel guilty or guilt-tripped, but I do want them to be open and honest so we can debate constructively how we can improve education for all our children.

Ooh, I'm feeling chippy and ranty tonight. Best get myself off to bed. Night all.

seatrek - oh yes, it will always be a dirty secret with teachers. After all, it is part of their job (and quite rightly) to be positive about the state system and show how it is working for the kids they teach - so to "vote with their feet" and not use it themselves sends quite a mixed message!

bibbity - exactly, it really isn't just a case of "putting money aside" that you could have spent on something else. (You could be describing me and DW there in your post.) of course the odd person will always pipe up that they managed it by scrimping year on year, driving an old banger and never having a holiday, but this is not the norm.

stealth - not saying at all that you claimed a monopoly on hard work, but I felt it important to point out that hard work /= choice.

(That's supposed to be a a "does not necessarily equal" sign. I'm not sure it works.)

"But I suspect many of those who go private do at some level feel bad about it, because they know it's shoring up inequality."

You are too kind. Really I don't feel guilty at all. I might feel a bit tired, what with 20+ years of 60+ hour weeks at work (which is obviously just as hard as the average person of UQD's acquaintance). But guilty? Nah.

I meant: my daughter's NEEDS cannot be met...

FWIW I don't feel bad about depriving the state system of my DCs presence. Not for an instant - and I don't see why I should, TBH. If I am defensive (and I accept that I probably come across that way) it is in the face of people who assume that we made that choice on social/snob grounds, when we didn't. Neither am I claiming that my DS (DD not old enough to judge) could not have had his needs adequately met in the state sector. He could have done. However, we can afford it, so we chose to opt for more than 'adequate'. That does not mean the fees are inconsequential or that money is no object.

Enough. Sleep.

All my siblings went from (different) comprehensives to Oxbridge.

Does that mean my parents are somehow £800,000 up?

I am thinking of a family I know who were all privately educated (family living as Church Mice, doing bed and breakfast, etc) and they ended up going to new Universities I hadn't even heard of, and now, they have probably no chance of getting on the housing ladder. Their parents could have given the money as a deposit for a flat.

There is a huge amount of collusion between Oxford Colleges and public schools, but is getting less. One of my friends went into academia and we planned to all send our kids to the college in the year that he was admissions tutor.

If you spend £200,000 on an Eton/Marlborough education, how do you not end up feeling thick as shit if you end up in a Scout Hut?
(join the army?)

I feel guilty.

I think the £200k Eton et al mob have enough cash not to worry if they end up in a Scout Hut Balliol!

I'm glad you don't, Quattro. But I think many do (but maybe I'm being too generous!)

As for 20+ years of 60+ hour weeks at work - yup, me too. True for many of us, I suspect. Also irrelevant. Our private and state schools both boast a good mix of parents who work bloody hard (whether as venture capitalists or double shifts as care assistants) and people who do chuff all (funded either by the state or by inherited wealth).

One last comment before I walk away and hide the thread.

If anyone ever dared suggest to my DH that he should feel guilty about working and saving to ensure that his DC's educational experience is nothing like his was, I would not want to answer for their safety.

hester nice point about the extremes of people who do nothing. I get a bit annoyed with people who confuse long hours doing a job they like with hard work.

[scaredofstealth'sDHemoticon]
WFT?

Hey, tell your DH to bring it on, stealth! Us state schoolies love nothing better than a good scrap

No seriously, my point was that all this grandstanding and posturing really isn't helpful...

Oh, I was supposed to be in bed too, wasn't I? Really going now.

I don't think people should feel guilty about sending their children to private schools. I think they shouldn't do it though. But if you're going to do something, do it because you think it the right thing to do. Otherwise, it's what Mark Steel said. Daft position to be in.

Ooh, good one Quattro - Xenia would be proud

Belle, no these ils are at the £200k schools with (unthinkable) mortgaging and big grandparent contribution. And good on Newcastle and Exeter but I Would Want A Place In the Kingdom of Heaven for that money, and at the top table too.

I knew someone years ago who worked as a private tutor for a son of the old King of Jordan. He was paid, 20 years ago, roughly the same as he would have been paid as a junior master in a school here, ie, not that much. (At this point, inevitably, public-schoolphiles talk about staff discounts). Surely for the cost of Eton, you could employ a private tutor and have change?

Just out of interest, how much do private schools cost? I looked at our nearest, which is about £12 k a year and thought "well we can never afford that so forget it". Just wondering, if some are cheaper than that? What do middle-income people do, say your £30 - £40k a year crowd - borrow and pay it off slowly like a mortgage? I mean if we sent all ours to private schools at £12k a year, we'd literally be on baked beans and bus rides and that would be it. Impossible.
Though I suppose knife gangs etc might make me shell out if I lived in that sort of catchment area. Interesting debate.

I'll throw one back at you then, just to be provocative back:

Maybe we could potentially earn enough between us to pay school fees if I hadn't given up work to become a SAHM, but I feel that in the long run my children benefit just as much if not more from having me there than they would from going to private school

There you go