to find it incredibly irritating when in certain circles school fees are talked about as if they are a necessity, not a choice?

[emkana]

Like Emma Thomson currently on the Women programme on BBC 4, or very often in the "Style" section of the Sunday Times.

'Wilful denial of their own good fortune' is right. It is the wilful denial that is more grating than the good fortune.

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The whole point of the OP was that emkana was objecting to people stating it was a necessity rather than a choice...

because by any standard, private education is not a necessity, it is a choice.

we might feel it is a necessity for whatever reason, but it is actually a choice. And one dependent on income. Or generous grandparents...

The OP was objecting to a dismissive attitude towards state education that is sweeping, elitest and self-satisfied.

what's not to understand?

Surely, after all I have said about educating my ds privately, you cannot still think I am some knee jerk fool who disses private education for the glow of righteousness it gives me?

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And to be honest, my school did none of those things, but I still managed to get decent grades, decent a levels, a more than decent degree....And to have a perfectly pleasant time while I was there. No, they didn't stretch me as an individual , or care particularly about my personal interests. But they did what they said on the tin. They educated me to to a more than a decent standard. The rest I got from my parents, my friends and my environment. I have never once felt hard done by that my education wasn't flowers and hearts...

Your arguments are specious.

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To clarify..I did NOT have a substandard education.

I had a normal education in a decent state school.

You seem to wilfully dismiss the OP's objections...

That there are some people who dismiss state education OUT OF HAND.

Get it?

I agree with bloss. Everything in life is a choice, one person's necessity is another's choice. People say it is a necessity to have a roof over their heads. But some tramps choose not to have a roof over their heads. It is not a necessity for them. When buying the necessity of food, we still choose whether to buy a tin of beans or a loaf of bread. We are not animals scrabbling around in the dirt ekeing out a living. We make choices with the resources that we have and decide what is necessary for us with those resources. As bloss says to reduce necessity to the level of life and death makes the term meaningless.

And what part of "a more than decent degree" equates to substandard education is beyond me...

You betray your own prejudices by by assuming my education was substandard.

Shocking.

And again, I educate my DS privately. Did you miss that entirely?

You can only talk about private education as a necessity when you have reached a certain level of income that allows you to educate privately.

And no, I don't believe that not being able to pay means it is still a necessity. If my ds was still in state school, I would still be fighting for him. I know he would be educated, but I have bought my way out of the effort it would take.

It makes my life easier. That's all. If he did not have SN I would not have countenanced private school for a nanosecond.

To the point that it is wrong that some people class school fees as necessary as mortgage, and that by saying about school fees to state attending parents who can't afford school fees is insulting.

I disagree so strongly on this.

Before one takes out a mortgage, did you consider how much it would be whether you could afford it, and then decide if you eat out less take fewer holidays etc you can afford it and therefore signed for the mortgage. Now that mortgage is necessity. Do you now if ever in the presence of someone who can't get on the property ladder and lives at home, or in rented, make sure you never say, a mortgage is a necessity. It isn't you could live in Housing Accommodation, you could live in Rented, you could live with your parents. You choose to have a mortgage.

It's the same with school fees, all the weighing up is done before hand, once you have committed to it, yes it is possible to move to state, but that's not your choice. Same way it's not your choice because you don't want to pay the mortgage anymore, you sell up.

They are both as much or as not a necessity as each other.

I see bloss is up to her old tricks again.

Here is how I made the decision to send DSs (age 8 and 10) to private school - and no it is not an absolute necessity at this stage but will be later.

I have never owned a car and never owned a house. I can afford to own a car and a house but I deal with the necessity for shelter by renting a house and the necessity for transport I deal with by hiring a taxi or taking the bus. I save a lot of money but occassionally it is a bit inconvenient and not quite as luxurious as if I owned my own car and house.

I also have a necessity to educate my children. I could meet that necessity by sending them to the one local state primary school my DSs would be eligible for but it does not provide very good facilities and does not provide wrap around care. The quality of the teaching is good but there are 30 pupils per class.

If the state primary school had small class sizes, good facilites and wrap around care I would be sending my DSs there. Instead, I send my DSs to a private school which provides the best overall education I can afford in the place that I live. It has good facilities small classes (15 per class) and wrap around care. In that sense I choose to spend my money on something that I think is a good investment in my childrens future but it is not an absolute necessity.

Let me be clear, if I had a very good state Primary school near where I live I would send my DSs there, save the money and get a better education for DSs too. The private school my DSs go to is good but not outstanding. It is just better than the state Primary schools on the dimensions that matter to me. I went to a good state Primary school myself.

At secondary school level the gap between state and private school becomes a gulf in the area we live. At that point, I would regard private schooling as a necessity because the state school simply fails to provide a good education in the opinion of Ofsted and parents I have spoken to. I could get a better state secondary education for my DSs by moving house and paying for a tutor (an absolute necessity) to get them through the Grammar school entry exams in the LEA next to the one we live in.

I don't think wanting a good level of education for DSs is wrong and I am sorry that some people have no choice but to send their DCs to bad schools. I do not think that is my fault though. A good education to a good minimum standard is a necessity and if the state cannot provide it in ther area some parents feel they have no choice but to pay for it.

I completely agree, ABD, but again, it does come back to your last sentence 'if the state cannot provide then parents feel they have to pay for it". You can only do that if you have the funds to do so. I t necessitates a level of income that is sadly beyond most people in this country (and I mean sad because I think the wages we pay are shocking at the lower end of of the scale).

In my last but one job I was working in publishing, I earned the average wage pro rata ( I did what amounted to a 4 day week to allow for childcare). My gross pay was £18K per year. Sound a lot? Not in London it isn't, and if it hadn't been for WFTC there was no way I could have worked, let alone pay for school fees.

I do feel that people genuinely don't remember/know what being poor actually is like, and what it means. It certainly does not mean being able to find £10K per year per child for primary by a bit of saving, not running a car or renting rather than owning (though it is generally cheaper to own, surely?)

Just wanted to say that I admire your posts MadameDefarge and that you say it all so much more eloquently than I am able to. Maybe my substandard education is to blame - I'm from Germany, where we have hardly any private schools, so there was never any hope for me.

The interesting part in all this is that if I choose to take out a mortgage and pay it every month I will definitely own a house by the end of it, whereas if I choose to pay for my child's private school there is no guarantee that my child will have academic success or a happy and successful life. Can we all make a date to meet up again in 20 years' time and report back if the choices that we made paid off?

MadameDefarge - I agree with everything you have said. If we could not afford to pay for secondary education there is no doubt we would now be increasingly desperate to move house and try every way we could to get the DS1 into a good state secondary school. Just as many people are on MN and friends in RL.

Off topic, but when we add up the cost we find renting a house much cheaper than owning a house. To own our house would cost us double what we now pay in rent if we owned it (includes the cost of repairs and insurance and 100% mortgage).

Once again Madame, I admire your staying power. I have given up on this thread as it appears to have been taken over by people who would argue black is white.

I don't understand - a couple of hours ago I posted an innocuous post saying I agreed with MadameD and that I though stereotyping on both sides was not a good thing and that I am addicted to this thread...and it's been deleted by Mumsnet...Why?? Gosh I'm feeling a little sensitive now. Does anyone know how you find out why your posts have been deleted?

'no guarantee that my child will have academic success'. Well, if you educate your child in the private sector you can probably guarantee that they will end up with better academic results than the equivalently intelligent child in a BAD (note the bad, not every) state school. That's why people pay, and see it as a necessity.

There is a disproportionate number of privately educated pupils in all top universities.

I really can see why people pay, but it cannot be argued that the whole education system is fair.

I don't think anyone is ever going to agree what a necessity is. Personally, I wouldn't see paying school fees as a necessity, more as a lifestyle choice.

Admittedly I was a little snippy and terse last night about an entirely different direction the thread was taking, .. but that was not the case here, quite the opposite.....oohh no, I feel like I'm in MN detention...

kittycat37, I read your post, can't remember the details, but it didn't strike me as sanything that needed deleting. That is surprising, I think you have to email MNHQ or something to find out. Maybe someone more knowledgeable can help out.

Perhaps someone thought I was being sarcastic or something - but I wasn't, honest.

loungelizard, I know, but then again some of our state-educated children might do very well indeed as well and I'm hoping to have the last laugh that way